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Bo Jordan - rankers explain yourself

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But a ranking is based on wins and losses. Bo's losses look great, but he has spent a large amount of time at 174 (10 matches last year and all year this season) without beating anyone. His best win at 174 is Alex Meyer 3-2 on a late TD.

His body of work shouldn't count because it was at 165?

 

I didn't think I needed to list out all of Bo's impressive wins.

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BoJo wrestled at literally 60% strength/health, and literally didn't take a shot h til the 3rd period, by plan. When you can do this and still beat a quality guy like Meyer at Carver of all places that's pretty incredible. Bo needs the matches so he gutted it out. Remember this guy was in a freakin walking boot just 2 weeks ago, hasn't wrestled in a long time. Give the guy a break.

People have a tough time seeing and understanding this.

Shows me just how good he is.

Should he be ranked 1? Not sure but piling on him is pretty aloof.

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I wrote plenty on this in another thread. But I'd like those that do rankings to defend having him at #1.

 

It is the end of January. We are 3 MONTHS in to this season. Guy has missed a ton of action. His match vs Meyer looked pretty poor. Did NOTHING until OT.

 

Do you really look at his body of work for this season - again three months old - and how he has looked this season, and TRULY believe he is THE BEST in the weight class RIGHT NOW?

 

I can not see a reasonable rational person saying they do believe this.

Plus, it wasn't in OT.

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His body of work shouldn't count because it was at 165?

 

I didn't think I needed to list out all of Bo's impressive wins.

Isn't it reasonable that as the season goes on and last year gets further and further away, last year's results are weighted less and less?  Isn't it also reasonable that results in the weight class you are ranking are weighted more than results in another weight class?  Are people who think those factors matter crazy for thinking Bo hasn't done enough at 174 to be ranked #1 at this point?

 

His very impressive 165 credentials were more than enough to put him ahead of freshman Valencia and everyone else back in November.  Since then Valencia has added significantly to his resume while Bo has not.  Isn't it ok to look past rankings inertia and analyze that?

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174 NCAA final will be Valencia v Hall, unless they somehow end up on the same side of bracket. Jordan does not have the explosive offense of either of these two. In fact, nobody at that weight has their offense. Not a slight to Jordan, Epperly or Reabulto...but these two can do things that the others can't.

 

Hall is just getting warmed up and will be in peak form by March.

 

Bo doesnt need explosiveness just stamina. Both Hall and Valencia gas.

Edited by lonewolf

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174 NCAA final will be Valencia v Hall, unless they somehow end up on the same side of bracket. Jordan does not have the explosive offense of either of these two. In fact, nobody at that weight has their offense. Not a slight to Jordan, Epperly or Reabulto...but these two can do things that the others can't.

 

Hall is just getting warmed up and will be in peak form by March.

Hall loses his first match after having his red shirt pulled in Carver. Bo beats the same guy who beat Hall in the same arena at less than 100% but Hall should be ranked ahead of him?? As far as Bo  not having the offense. He did beat I Mar twice to win Ironman. I will take a healthy Jordan vs the field

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I wrote plenty on this in another thread. But I'd like those that do rankings to defend having him at #1.

 

It is the end of January. We are 3 MONTHS in to this season. Guy has missed a ton of action. His match vs Meyer looked pretty poor. Did NOTHING until OT.

 

Do you really look at his body of work for this season - again three months old - and how he has looked this season, and TRULY believe he is THE BEST in the weight class RIGHT NOW?

 

I can not see a reasonable rational person saying they do believe this.

Amen.  People aren't looking at this season enough. I think Snyder should be ranked 8th this year as well.  Who has he even beaten this year? 

Edited by ChristianPyles

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I did not know there were actual ranking rules. Could you provide a link to the rules?

 

I am only referring to where he is ranked right now, and to be consistent with what I have always believed I think rankers should rank guys based on who they feel are the best guys until proven otherwise. If they did this then you could see where some or most might have ranked BoJo #1 to start the year and where some and perhaps most would not rank him #1 today, especially when you consider BoJo had three times the opportunity to just show up and wrestle Zahid and on each occasion he was not there. With a new baby I totally get that he had valid reasons, but he still has a new baby now and he left home last night to wrestle so just sayin.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as it should be.

 

 

While I get the point you are trying to make in terms of rankings and I somewhat agree, I think your comment above in bold is a little off base.  

 

There is a difference between having a new baby at home now who is almost 2 months old and having an expectant wife who is due to have a baby at any time.  Jordan was not traveling with the team in the early stages of the season because his wife was due at anytime.  And then still didn't travel far for a couple of weeks after she had the baby.

 

I don't think Jordan was ducking anyone but that is my opinion.

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That's why I just pointed out but still said he had valid reasons. My point is simple. Rankers can have their own personal beauty is in the eye of the beholder type reasons so one could rank Bo #1 while another could rank Zahid #1.

 

No big deal as it will all settle out in due time. 

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Amen. People aren't looking at this season enough. I think Snyder should be ranked 8th this year as well. Who has he even beaten this year?

Ranking Services should only be looking at this year at this late juncture of the Season. I get initial slotting based on previous years results, but we are far enough into this Season to be consistent with NCAA Seeding Criteria, which is, ONLY THIS SEASON.

 

Wrestlers with limited matches and unimpressive wins should be somewhat penalized.

 

IMO this applies to Youtsey, Peters, Palacio, Bo Jordan, Downey, & Snyder)

 

These guys are obviously all high caliber wrestlers but NONE of them deserve their current Rankings based on THIS Seasons accomplishments.

Edited by Show_Me

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Just listened to Flo. They are amusing in how they defend their position.

 

It is perfectly reasonable to have facts sway your rankings:

- Bo Jordan has missed many matches

- He has been injured

- He was not practicing

- He went to OT against a roughly 10 ranked guy. And he did that with very little offense.

 

It is OK to take all of these into account when making a ranking.

 

They comically ask ... what about Snyder?

- Snyder is not injured and missing practices as a result

- He missed matches with team due to a significant tournament, you may know about it, which he won

 

Bo Jordan and Kyle Snyder's situation's are quite different. To not admit that is to do a disservice to their listenership.

 

Seems like they simply don't want to admit they are wrong and are further entrenching themselves in a ridiculous position.

 

And to be clear, I am NOT forecasting / predicting. I'm saying right NOW what should the ranking be based on what has been done. Last season is pretty old news folks.

 

Bo may just win 174 this year ... I do not know. But right now, he should not be #1.

 

And also, I can give a rat's ass if is Zahid at # 1. Flo guys try to disparage saying all folks that are making this argument want is that it be Zahid. Really? No. I want it to be Realbuto but I get that's not right.

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Just listened to Flo. They are amusing in how they defend their position.

 

It is perfectly reasonable to have facts sway your rankings:

- Bo Jordan has missed many matches

- He has been injured

- He was not practicing

- He went to OT against a roughly 10 ranked guy. And he did that with very little offense.

 

It is OK to take all of these into account when making a ranking.

 

They comically ask ... what about Snyder?

- Snyder is not injured and missing practices as a result

- He missed matches with team due to a significant tournament, you may know about it, which he won

 

Bo Jordan and Kyle Snyder's situation's are quite different. To not admit that is to do a disservice to their listenership.

 

Seems like they simply don't want to admit they are wrong and are further entrenching themselves in a ridiculous position.

 

And to be clear, I am NOT forecasting / predicting. I'm saying right NOW what should the ranking be based on what has been done. Last season is pretty old news folks.

 

Bo may just win 174 this year ... I do not know. But right now, he should not be #1.

 

And also, I can give a rat's ass if is Zahid at # 1. Flo guys try to disparage saying all folks that are making this argument want is that it be Zahid. Really? No. I want it to be Realbuto but I get that's not right.

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1084067-174-lbs-bo-jordan-ohio-state-vs-alex-meyer-iowa

 

I know you don't need facts to have an opinion but once again, it wasn't OT.

At no point in that bout was BOJO in any danger of losing.

 

Realbuto lost to Zahid, so who else should it be?  If you aren't arguing for Zahid, why are you talking?

 

He is #1 until beaten.

Edited by LordNelson

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I like these two rules of thumb on rankings that (I believe) Flo tends to use.

 

1. Once ranked, don't punish a guy for winning, even if the win is ugly.

A 1-point win is still a win. Trying to rank based on "dominance" might be OK to start the rankings at the beginning of the year, but once you've established a guy at a certain rank, you shouldn't demote him because he didn't win by enough. That's a very slippery slope.

 

2. Regarding inactivity, either pull a guy from rankings altogether or keep him where he is.

Anything in between is disingenuous. If a guy misses a bunch of matches, you should determine whether he should be ranked at all. Perfect example this year is Palacio. Nobody knew whether he was hurt, left to South America for good when Trunp won, couldn't get his weight down... he was the great unknown. In a situation like that, you don't move him down a few slots in the rankings. That makes zero sense. You yank him until he actually wrestles. If you decide to rank him despite inactivity, you have to keep him where he was. How does it make sense that absence tells you anything good or bad about the guy? By definition, absence tells you nothing, so you keep him where he was. Or pull him. It's a judgment call, but anything in between is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line, one missed match? Three? Five? Six?

 

Therefore, I would keep Bo at #1. Remember, rankings, which strive to be as objective as possible, are not necessarily predictions, which are innately subjective. I wouldn't predict Bo to win anymore based on what I've seen. But I'd keep his ranking the same.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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I don't think he should be #1.  I also don't think my opinion is THE right one on this.  I can see pretty easily how they might leave him.  Either side of this debate is a winner and I take no issue with anyone ranking him #1.  There is no other candidate that is so overwhelmingly qualified as to demand the change.  

 

I think the Snyder comparison is absurd though.  Snyder is the returning champ at that weight and is missing matches to win Yarygin.

 

Bo is a returning AA from a lower weight who has never beaten a top 5 guy in this weight and is missing matches and practice time to injury.  

 

Making the comparison between the two is a sad attempt to 'win' an argument with justifications they don't at all believe.  

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I've pretty much subscribed to the "pull'em if inactive" theory. When I was with TOM/AWN, we refined this to mean if someone missed two consecutive ranking cycles of scheduled activity, with early-season opens really not withstanding unless they were actual scheduled events and the majority of their starters competed. I believe TOM still operates under a similar situation.

 

So if you missed Vegas, then missed the next week's dual meet, you're out until you return. We usually slotted the returning wrestler either in the same slot or one spot below, depending on the movement around them. 

 

If you miss a dual Dec. 18, then don't have another team event until Jan. 4, we waited until Jan. 5 to pull them out if they didn't compete. It kind of gave us a formula to determine whether or not someone was out. We had too many coaches say "he'll be back next match" only not to be back when we were leaving someone in for a third week of scheduled inactivity. Got burned on that too many times so we made the call to make it what it was. It made things easier. We also provided notes as to who was out.

 

We also didn't rank wrestlers who couldn't compete for their schools officially -- wrestlers sitting out (Ivy), wrestlers not currently enrolled (they don't officially count for NCAA records either), wrestlers suspended or wrestlers ineligible. I've stuck to those rules since ranking wrestlers at the college level in 2005. Different strokes for different folks, but each outlet has a perceived methodology and if they're consistent with it, that's what it is. 

 

If I were currently doing rankings, I'd have removed BoJo after his inactivity and then probably re-slotted him behind Valencia and Epperly. Then Epperly takes an L, so he'd drop and BoJo would move back to No. 2. BoJo didn't do anything to lose it, but he also didn't do anything to maintain it -- that's just my take on if #1 guys sit for the swaths of time like we're talking about.

 

I don't think there's a wrong answer with how anyone out there has handled the BoJo ranking situation, its a matter of procedure. Whether or not you agree with it is immaterial. 

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