Why Do Some Great Wrestlers Struggle As Coaches?

[BaldwinKnowBest 19]

With the news of Kevin Jackson stepping I can't help but wonder why some great wrestlers struggle as coaches? Iowa State was perennial powerhouse under Cael and Douglas but KJ just couldn't seem to keep it going. He is one our country's greatest wrestlers, sounds the part, and recruited well but the Cyclones have severely regressed. Why??? I would also question why the Maryland program hasn't performed better with McCoy at reigns. And just so some moron doesn't through race into my topic, I'm black by the way.

 

 

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[Pinnum 846]

There are so many facets to being a great coach.  

 

Some people are great coaches but are not great head coaches.  A head coach is much more than someone that is able to coach up athletes.  

 

Some people are much better head coaches than they are coaches because they are great at recruiting, fundraising, administration, etc.

 

Also, some people are better at certain programs than others.  This is commonly observed in basketball and football.  A coach will have great success, get hired by a bigger name program with higher expectations and actually perform worse (nationally) than they did at the smaller school.  Then they are fired, get hired by another less profile school, and they are back to performing better (nationally) than they did at the higher profile school.

 

Having the right coach for the right program is key.  

[hammerlockthree 2,637]

Thats a really dumb question. 

[aknipp 131]

Coaches have to be administrators, fund raisers, surrogate parents as well as teachers.  

 

Then you have to toss in recruiting, which is selling.  

 

There are a number of things a coach has to do and not all can do it well.  

[cangemi 228]

Different skills are needed

[BaldwinKnowBest 19]

I was really shocked that KJ didn't do better at ISU. He seemed to recruit well, had a well funded program with support, and he obviously knows the sport. I just can't fathom them being 1-9 in duals.

 

 

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[BaldwinKnowBest 19]

Thats a really dumb question.

You care to throw in your 2 cents of why KJ struggled at ISU?

 

 

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[hammerlockthree 2,637]

Bad coach. 

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

Some great wrestlers struggle as coaches, but the three most credentialed active coaches in the NCAA were all olympic champions.  KJ actually didn't do that terrible of a job, albeit it was not  up to what ISU would want.  I still think there are only a couple of guys who could do better (hopefully ISU brings in one of them). 

 

I wouldn't completely rule out race as a factor. I've seen a number of posts on this board suggesting that Burroughs' "style" of wrestling may not translate well to most athletes as a coach. This is just a guess but maybe some athletes/parents take this same view and value Cael's/Brands' golds more than KJ's.  Of course, this can't be said for sure, since nobody knows what is going on in somebody's head. 

 

KJ has also performed poorly as a coach before though, as seen by the 2008 olympic results. Most likely, he is a very good coach, just not up to the standards of ISU.  There's no shame in that. They were going to regress no matter who followed Cael...He is the best coach in the NCAA right now for folkstyle. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Billyhoyle

[BobDole 1,233]

Wrestling has backwards thinking in that if you were an accomplished wrestler on the mat somehow that magically translates into being a great coach also. Anytime a new coach is hired people immediately go to his career stats as a competitor and think if they were that good they would be able to coach it. I don't know of any other sport in which this is true.

 

There is so much more to being a coach that being able to show a double leg. In college especially you have to recruit, relate to kids, deal with administration, work the fundraising trail, and more. Add to that being able to get kids to believe in themselves and probably more importantly getting kids to peak at the right time is not an easy task to do. 

 

I can't wait to hear the potential candidates and everyone critiquing their competitive resume instead of their coaching resume.

[gutfirst 220]

Of all the dopey opinions on this board this has to be right up there. Ask the athletes years after their experience what they think of their coach and then form your opinion on whether a coach did a good job.

[teach 175]

Some coaches coach wrestling and some coaches coach wrestlers.

[Tofurky 633]

Some guys can't get beyond the, "this is what worked for me, so it should work for you," mentality.

[ironmonkey 157]

Some great wrestlers struggle as coaches, but the three most credentialed active coaches in the NCAA were all olympic champions.  KJ actually didn't do that terrible of a job, albeit it was not  up to what ISU would want.  I still think there are only a couple of guys who could do better (hopefully ISU brings in one of them). 

 

I wouldn't completely rule out race as a factor. I've seen a number of posts on this board suggesting that Burroughs' "style" of wrestling may not translate well to most athletes as a coach. This is just a guess but maybe some athletes/parents take this same view and value Cael's/Brands' golds more than KJ's.  Of course, this can't be said for sure, since nobody knows what is going on in somebody's head. 

 

KJ has also performed poorly as a coach before though, as seen by the 2008 olympic results. Most likely, he is a very good coach, just not up to the standards of ISU.  There's no shame in that. They were going to regress no matter who followed Cael...He is the best coach in the NCAA right now for folkstyle. 

 

So commenting on extraordinary athleticism is a race issue?  JB floats like a ballet dancer and explodes like he was shot out of a cannon.  It is incredible.  Very few people, irregardless of their race,  have that sort of talent.  I don't recall Jackson moving the way JB does or people being as amazed by his innate athleticism.  I don't really see a connection between the two, although there may be one.  I am not close enough to know.  Race may have been an issue in this case, but I really question the use of JB as an example of how it could be. 

 

I pretty much agree with everything Bob Dole said above.  Being an accomplished athlete doesn't make you a good teacher and/or administrator.  Many NFL and NBA coaches never played in the pros.  Many never even started in college, or played div 1 for that matter.  The head of the best camp for MMA had 2 or 3 professional fights himself.  Boxing has had countless trainers who were never great themselves. 

 

I think it is pretty nuts that Iowa st had a  bunch of AAs under his watch and he is being labeled a failure.  I know this season has been rough and it always seemed like they were about to turn a corner that never came under his watch, but at most schools, he would have been considered a success!

[KTG119 820]

Some guys can't get beyond the, "this is what worked for me, so it should work for you," mentality.

and semi related, some who were great coaches can only relate to, and effectively coach the guys who have elite potential. 

[LordNelson 553]

Jordan Burroughs may be one of the best candidates to head a program.

His personality is so likeable and his credentials will give him "Cael" like power in recruiting.

 

If you can put the right kids on the bus, take care of the admin, do some fundraising/alumni work, and keep in touch with the local wrestling community then the double legs will handle themselves.

[LordNelson 553]

and semi related, some who were great coaches can only relate to, and effectively coach the guys who have elite potential. 

Sounds French for "not screwing a kid up"

I wouldn't call that coaching.

[KTG119 820]

Sounds French for "not screwing a kid up"

I wouldn't call that coaching.

no....I'm talking about being into coaching an elite kid on what it takes to get his game to the next level (which is different than just not screwing the kid up) but not as interested in or as capable of teaching a lower tier kid to be decent in college.

[Tofurky 633]

no....I'm talking about being into coaching an elite kid on what it takes to get his game to the next level (which is different than just not screwing the kid up) but not as interested in or as capable of teaching a lower tier kid to be decent in college.

 

I agree with this 100%. It's way easier to take a kid who comes in with (almost) all the tools and fine tune some things they walked though the door with in order to make them competitive. What it is NOT easy to do is stick it out with a particular kid or group of kids for three to four years, building their skills, building their confidence through the many trials and tribulations they'll endure, hoping that come junior and/or senior year that they can make a run at Nationals and possibly the medal stand. Imagine being an NJCAA coach and not having that amount of time. I appreciate what they do.

[BobDole 1,233]

Jordan Burroughs may be one of the best candidates to head a program.

His personality is so likeable and his credentials will give him "Cael" like power in recruiting.

 

If you can put the right kids on the bus, take care of the admin, do some fundraising/alumni work, and keep in touch with the local wrestling community then the double legs will handle themselves.

And Burroughs even commented that he didn't enjoy coaching last year when he was a volunteer assistant at Nebraska.

[aknipp 131]

You need to be able to recruit talent or develop talent.  Coaches can be successful either way,  though having the right recruits makes a coaches life much easier.  If a coach can do both, then life is really good. 

[wrestlingnerd 3,012]

And Burroughs even commented that he didn't enjoy coaching last year when he was a volunteer assistant at Nebraska.

 

I don't doubt you, but out of curiosity, when did he say that?

 

I shared the Lord's opinion of JB as a coaching prospect until you wrote that. He's obviously an all-timer so his wrestling credentials cannot be topped, but he brings a lot beyond that. I know camps aren't D1 rooms, but he definitely has a way with kids that I thought would translate very well to coaching.

[tightwaist 390]

Although a different sport, look to the Patriots as proof that coaches don't need to be "great" in their given sport in order to be highly successful. 

 

Bill Belichick-Wesleyan College

Josh McDaniels (OC)- John Carroll College

Matt Patricia (DC)- Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

 

Wrestling is different, but not completely.  John Smith, Cael Sanderson and Tom Brands are always going to be good, largely because they are going to attract the best of the best, based on their names and accomplishments.  To me, a guy like Tom Borrelli at Central Michigan is an example of someone who is very successful without having the typical credentials of a former D1 superstar. 

[NYWRESTLER94 221]

To me, a guy like Tom Borrelli at Central Michigan is an example of someone who is very successful without having the typical credentials of a former D1 superstar.

same can be said for his son as well

[OldGrappler 48]

In college especially you have to recruit, relate to kids, deal with administration, work the fundraising trail, and more. Add to that being able to get kids to believe in themselves and probably more importantly getting kids to peak at the right time is not an easy task to do. 

 

 

You've hit the simple truths, which are so very hard to execute. 

 

The best wrestling recruits are coveted by all your competitors.  Winning in the competition for them, and identifying the "sleepers" is just damned hard, unglamorous, humbling work. 

 

Believing in the kids first is the way to get them to believe in themselves, but it takes leaps of faith sometimes, and tremoundous patience.