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OtisCampbell

Dual Criteria

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If Telford would have lost last night by dec it would have went to criteria. And it looks like PSU would have won. But shouldn't a fall trump a tech fall? It is the ultimate goal in wrestling. And you are not given the chance to score more points on a guy, that in most cases, you probably were going to. Would they have counted the back points of Ramos' pinning hold in the match total? Seems pretty silly not to have falls be the second criteria and then tech falls.

 

 

Rule 3.12 Breaking Team Ties in Dual Meets: When two teams finish in a tie in a dual meet or a team advancement tournament, the following shall be applied to determine a winner:

 

3.12.1

Greater number of victories (Note: Forfeits, defaults and disqualifications count only toward total number of victories.)

 

3.12.2

Combined total of falls and technical falls

 

3.12.3

Total match points

 

3.12.4

First take down

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For simplicity, I like the idea of having the final match be the tie breaker. Whoever wins the final match of the night is given the win in a tied dual (with it being scores as a TB win).

 

With that said, I also want order of matches randomized or at the least want the starting weights drawn. I don't like HWT determining so match matches. I like the idea of mixing up the weight class order advantage of momentum.

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When calculating total match points, how are pins handled? For example, the the score of a bout is 2-1 and the wrestler with 2 points pins the other, is he awarded 2 team points (or some other number like 5, 15, 16 or 20)?

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When calculating total match points, how are pins handled? For example, the the score of a bout is 2-1 and the wrestler with 2 points pins the other, is he awarded 2 team points (or some other number like 5, 15, 16 or 20)?

 

It is my understanding that both teams would have an equal number of falls/techs that cancel each other out. So I believe the scores of the matches not won by fall are used to calculate the match points total.

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When calculating total match points, how are pins handled? For example, the the score of a bout is 2-1 and the wrestler with 2 points pins the other, is he awarded 2 team points (or some other number like 5, 15, 16 or 20)?

 

It is my understanding that both teams would have an equal number of falls/techs that cancel each other out. So I believe the scores of the matches not won by fall are used to calculate the match points total.

 

I had the same question and concern as bigrig. Is this stated somewhere in Rule 3.12?

My preference: do away with tie-break rules alltogether. They only provide bragging rights, but you never hear anyone bragging about such "victories".

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It is my understanding that both teams would have an equal number of falls/techs that cancel each other out. So I believe the scores of the matches not won by fall are used to calculate the match points total.

 

I had the same question and concern as bigrig. Is this stated somewhere in Rule 3.12?

My preference: do away with tie-break rules alltogether. They only provide bragging rights, but you never hear anyone bragging about such "victories".

 

I agree that it is VERY vague. The official rule change has no additional descriptions listed for each criteria. So I assumed If a pin and a tech are given equal standing in a prior criteria it only stands to reason that it would be held the same in a match scoring total. Otherwise I DO NOT understand why a team benefits from a Tech fall not only from it being valued the same as a pin in one criteria but it obviously slants the team total more than a pin would.

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I believe the following rule needs to be changed from -

 

3.12.2

Combined total of falls and technical falls

 

 

to

 

3.12.2

Combined total team points from wrestlers winning by fall and technical fall.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing last nite as the heavyweigh match started and it was my (mis)understanding that this was the rule.

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Only one minor issue...it's rule 3.15, not 3.12. Not sure why it's listed as 3.12 in the changes, but it's 3.15 in the actual rulebook.

 

Believe it or not, if one side has a fall and the other has a tech fall, and they cancel each other out, usually the side with the tech fall rather than the actual fall will end up winning in 3.15.3, due to the fact that they have an extra major decision in there, in all likelyhood.

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For simplicity, I like the idea of having the final match be the tie breaker. Whoever wins the final match of the night is given the win in a tied dual (with it being scores as a TB win).

 

With that said, I also want order of matches randomized or at the least want the starting weights drawn. I don't like HWT determining so match matches. I like the idea of mixing up the weight class order advantage of momentum.

Teague Moore tweeted an idea of his own last night...10 one-minute periods between each of the wrestlers...first fall wins or forfeit loses, otherwise most points wins.

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Only one minor issue...it's rule 3.15, not 3.12. Not sure why it's listed as 3.12 in the changes, but it's 3.15 in the actual rulebook.

 

Believe it or not, if one side has a fall and the other has a tech fall, and they cancel each other out, usually the side with the tech fall rather than the actual fall will end up winning in 3.15.3, due to the fact that they have an extra major decision in there, in all likelyhood.

 

http://www.nwoaofficials.org/PDF/Breaki ... cation.pdf

 

The above link seems to clarify that Falls and Techs do not count towards match points totals.

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Only one minor issue...it's rule 3.15, not 3.12. Not sure why it's listed as 3.12 in the changes, but it's 3.15 in the actual rulebook.

 

Believe it or not, if one side has a fall and the other has a tech fall, and they cancel each other out, usually the side with the tech fall rather than the actual fall will end up winning in 3.15.3, due to the fact that they have an extra major decision in there, in all likelyhood.

 

Not really, since the team with a fall could still have 4 wins by 7 pts and the tech team could have a major decision winning by 14 and 3 other wins by 2 and still lose 28-20. I agree that the odds go up since they have the only match that wins by 8 or more buts its far from a forgone conclusion.

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After looking at this, I think there is another loophole in the criteria. Correct me if I am wrong, but:

 

DQs or forfeits do NOT count towards the 2nd criteria. This encourages FF and rewards DQs in certain situations

 

Situation #1 - you are up by 6 points, last match. You have 2 pins, they have 1 pin. Their wrestler is a big favorite against your guy. Forfeit the match - you win by criteria. You send your guy out there - you could lose by criteria if they have more match points.

 

Situation #2 - In the middle of the match an overmatched wrestler from Team #1 gets hit with a bunch of stalling and then performs an illegal move for his final violation and is DQd (not sure if this is right in college - I know this can happen in HS rules). At the end of the match the team score is tied, Team #1 has 1 pin, Team #2 has the DQ. The wrestler from team Team #1 has essentially rewarded his team by not wrestling and using illegal moves.

 

Am I missing something here?

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Only one minor issue...it's rule 3.15, not 3.12. Not sure why it's listed as 3.12 in the changes, but it's 3.15 in the actual rulebook.

 

Believe it or not, if one side has a fall and the other has a tech fall, and they cancel each other out, usually the side with the tech fall rather than the actual fall will end up winning in 3.15.3, due to the fact that they have an extra major decision in there, in all likelyhood.

 

Not really, since the team with a fall could still have 4 wins by 7 pts and the tech team could have a major decision winning by 14 and 3 other wins by 2 and still lose 28-20. I agree that the odds go up since they have the only match that wins by 8 or more buts its far from a forgone conclusion.

I wasn't implying that it was a forgone conclusion, you just made the point far more artfully than I did.

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After looking at this, I think there is another loophole in the criteria. Correct me if I am wrong, but:

 

DQs or forfeits do NOT count towards the 2nd criteria. This encourages FF and rewards DQs in certain situations

 

Situation #1 - you are up by 6 points, last match. You have 2 pins, they have 1 pin. Their wrestler is a big favorite against your guy. Forfeit the match - you win by criteria. You send your guy out there - you could lose by criteria if they have more match points.

 

Situation #2 - In the middle of the match an overmatched wrestler from Team #1 gets hit with a bunch of stalling and then performs an illegal move for his final violation and is DQd (not sure if this is right in college - I know this can happen in HS rules). At the end of the match the team score is tied, Team #1 has 1 pin, Team #2 has the DQ. The wrestler from team Team #1 has essentially rewarded his team by not wrestling and using illegal moves.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

I could see situation #1 needing to be protected against by some type of language penalizing a forfeit in certain situations. Situation #2 is FAR more unlikely since you can no longer be stalled out of the match and it would take something egregious to get DQ'd and I simply can't see a coach telling their kid to "Sweep the leg" so Johnny can "put him in a body bag".

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IN this case the high school tie breaker rules make more sense, except that each forfeit should be counted as a takedown (maybe even a 3 point nearfall) for the purpose of criteria H - total number of first match points. Probably this should apply to defaults and DQs

 

 

Also consider, before final criteria P (coin flip) add the total exact weigh in weight, to 0.01 pounds, of all the wrestlers who wrestled (but not those receiving forfeits).

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Again, correct me if I'm wrong but if you get hit with stalling four times and then you lock hands aren't you dq'd?

 

I know this is the case in hs, not sure in college

 

No. Stalling is warning, 1, 1, 1, ...

 

Very difficult to get penalty point dqed in college any more.

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Personally I think they should add an 11th weight class and none of this would matter as there would only be 1 criteria, total number of match wins.

 

I'd love to see the return of 118.

 

Me too !!!! As a former 118#'r .... we need to get another weight class for the little guys.

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