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Was Heil pinned?

Should Jimmy have gotten the fall?  

97 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Jimmy have gotten the fall?

    • Yes
      69
    • No
      28


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47a1fd726b110e12e38cbe714ae3fc12.jpg

 

How's this one MSU?

 

 

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Not the clearest and a little far away to clearly see where the left scapula starts and stops, but I would call that position a pin if he stayed there for a solid 2 count.  Which, I can guarantee was not the case.

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Not the clearest and a little far away to clearly see where the left scapula starts and stops, but I would call that position a pin if he stayed there for a solid 2 count. Which, I can guarantee was not the case.

Not the case? Did you watch the match? Go check out last 20 seconds

 

 

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Not the case? Did you watch the match? Go check out last 20 seconds

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If that were the case you should have about 30 pictures of him in that exact same spot.  He was on his back exactly like that for much less than a second.  That is why I don't like still frame shots without time stamps.  If there were a solid half dozen photos showing 2 seconds or so of him being in that exact position, I would say a pin was warranted.  Going back and forth over that spot is NOT a pin.  This(thank God) is not Freestyle.  There are not touch falls and neutral falls are consistently not called unless the guy is clearly there for a longer period of time than a normal fall.

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Not the clearest and a little far away to clearly see where the left scapula starts and stops, but I would call that position a pin if he stayed there for a solid 2 count.  Which, I can guarantee was not the case.

A fall in college is only 1 second and does not need both scapula in contact with the mat. It is shoulders or "scapula area".

 

From NCAA rulebook.

 

2.13 Fall

Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see

Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one

second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall

be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in

position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or

scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one

second before a fall is awarded

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Just watched the HD replay on Flo as I only caught the FB stream live. 

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1111154-141-lbs-dean-heil-ok-state-vs-jimmy-gulibon-psu#.WKsxyG8rKUk

 

6:58

7:07

9:27

 

Were instances where based on the video, I felt Heil was pinned, the 9:27 instance being the clearest. There were also at least 2 more instances after 9:27 where it was very close but given the camera angle, I could not tell definitively. But @ 9:27, there is no doubt in my mind he was pinned. 

 

Nope, nope and nope. Again, ref in perfect position. I believe he did touch both shoulders very very briefly maybe twice. Both were when he bridged on his head in the first scenario around 7:00.. But he's so comfortable there that he knows when to use his head to push off.

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So they can never be questioned about a missed fall if they weren't in position to call it,.....seems about right. If a fall is not reviewable then (in this case and all others like it) the refs need not care about the two for takedown and worry about the two shoulders on the mat instead. Make sure the Fall isn't missed and review for the takedown if need be. No excuses for not being down on the mat looking for the fall.

Edited by unbiased

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So they can never be questioned about a missed fall if they weren't in position to call it,.....seems about right. If a fall is not reviewable then (in this case and all other like it) the refs need not care about the two for takedown and worry about the two shoulders on the mat instead. Make sure the Fall isn't missed and review for the takedown if need be. No excuses for not being down on the mat looking for the fall.

 

Yeah, I've wondered about that in general too. Also, you can't review a fall- but can you review a non-fall? (By spirit of rule I know you can't- just playing semantics).

I noticed that the PSU coaches were more calling for 2 than for a fall at the end. I don't know if they figured no point in asking for the fall but I was curious if they would ask for a td review.

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So they can never be questioned about a missed fall if they weren't in position to call it,.....seems about right. If a fall is not reviewable then (in this case and all others like it) the refs need not care about the two for takedown and worry about the two shoulders on the mat instead. Make sure the Fall isn't missed and review for the takedown if need be. No excuses for not being down on the mat looking for the fall.

 

 

So how would you rule on just the TD attempt that closed out the second period?

 

Gulibon got to one leg, spun around while Heil got the crotch lock, spun around again to get superior height, reached back to get control of Heil's other leg, and popped the head all while trying to control Heil on his back. All Heil did was grab the crotch lock and nothing else. Seems to me an offensive wrestler should have gotten something out of that. It further seems to me that the position Heil was in requires only to hold on and hope for a stalemate only. I have seen the offensive wrestler awarded in this position many times, including Gulibon many times. 

 

EDIT: Here is an example of the same position being awarded the TD. First TD in this Nico Megaludis highlight video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpVrUQdYlcc

Edited by TBar1977

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A fall in college is only 1 second and does not need both scapula in contact with the mat. It is shoulders or "scapula area".

 

From NCAA rulebook.

 

2.13 Fall

Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see

Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one

second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall

be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in

position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or

scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one

second before a fall is awarded

Well aware of the entire rule.  As I have said multiple times, it is a pretty consistent "unwritten" rule that a neutral fall requires 2x the amount of time to get called and I wrote exactly what I did meaning scapula "area", hence saying I couldn't tell by the pic where it started/stopped.

 

A neutral fall is nothing like a controlled fall and simply isn't going to be called the same way!

Edited by MSU158

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Some of this reminds me of a story a referee friend told me last year. Not sure if true- was told as true but illustrates a point.

 

A mid-western referee retired end of last year. After doing his last bout, putting his whistle on the mat, he ran up the stands to the top

 

And then shouted "You CAN see better from up here!".

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Some of this reminds me of a story a referee friend told me last year. Not sure if true- was told as true but illustrates a point.

 

A mid-western referee retired end of last year. After doing his last bout, putting his whistle on the mat, he ran up the stands to the top

 

And then shouted "You CAN see better from up here!".

...Except we have video replay, and we aren't influenced by 13 thousand screaming fans that don't want the pin called.  

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Not the clearest and a little far away to clearly see where the left scapula starts and stops, but I would call that position a pin if he stayed there for a solid 2 count.  Which, I can guarantee was not the case.

 

You guarantee this was not the case?????????  Try this:

 

https://twitter.com/Mitch_Rupert/status/833430254647668741

 

(Wish I knew how to embed tweet/video here)

 

Not sure how you can view that and still think that he wasn't pinned for at least two seconds.  He's flat from about .5 to 4.0 seconds in that video.  Clear view of the situation from this camera angle..

 

Of course there were under 10 seconds in the period and I'm sure the assistant ref was counting and in that situation the guy was just waiting for the period to end and was not going to call it no matter what.

 

The guy missed it.  Probably because of the crowd and the lateness of the period.  It happens.  Not sure why people want to make excuses for the ref.  They all make mistakes.

Edited by rickybobby

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Just watched the HD replay on Flo as I only caught the FB stream live.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1111154-141-lbs-dean-heil-ok-state-vs-jimmy-gulibon-psu#.WKsxyG8rKUk

 

6:58

7:07

9:27

 

Were instances where based on the video, I felt Heil was pinned, the 9:27 instance being the clearest. There were also at least 2 more instances after 9:27 where it was very close but given the camera angle, I could not tell definitively. But @ 9:27, there is no doubt in my mind he was pinned.

He wasn't pinned at 9:27 IMO. 6:58 and 9:44 were the closest IMO. But honestly I think a better argument might be that he should have had 2 at 9:44. Looked pretty in control to me (not a fan of either team).

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Some of this reminds me of a story a referee friend told me last year. Not sure if true- was told as true but illustrates a point.

 

A mid-western referee retired end of last year. After doing his last bout, putting his whistle on the mat, he ran up the stands to the top

 

And then shouted "You CAN see better from up here!".

 

you can definitely see better with HD video reply

 

...over and over  :-)

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You guarantee this was not the case?????????  Try this:

 

https://twitter.com/Mitch_Rupert/status/833430254647668741

 

(Wish I knew how to embed tweet/video here)

 

Not sure how you can view that and still think that he wasn't pinned for at least two seconds.  He's flat from about .5 to 4.0 seconds in that video.  Clear view of the situation from this camera angle..

 

Of course there were under 10 seconds in the period and I'm sure the assistant ref was counting and in that situation the guy was just waiting for the period to end and was not going to call it no matter what.

 

The guy missed it.  Probably because of the crowd and the lateness of the period.  It happens.  Not sure why people want to make excuses for the ref.  They all make mistakes.

I watched it a bunch of times.  His shoulder keeps popping up. Now, I WOULD expect a pin to be called there if the top guy was in control, especially in DI. That would be the sole thing the ref is looking for at that point, however that is not true in a scramble situation.

 

By now, I am actually surprised most argue.  Almost always you get the benefit of the doubt with an offensive pin(meaning it often gets called quickly).  The opposite is almost always true in neutral or defensive falls.  Refs simply don't like to call them and I agree with them.  This isn't freestyle.  You want to score, finish the takedown.  

 

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with the ref calling stalling or even fleeing the hold if it becomes obvious that the defending wrestler is solely looking for a stalemate............

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I watched it a bunch of times.  His shoulder keeps popping up. Now, I WOULD expect a pin to be called there if the top guy was in control, especially in DI. That would be the sole thing the ref is looking for at that point, however that is not true in a scramble situation.

 

By now, I am actually surprised most argue.  Almost always you get the benefit of the doubt with an offensive pin(meaning it often gets called quickly).  The opposite is almost always true in neutral or defensive falls.  Refs simply don't like to call them and I agree with them.  This isn't freestyle.  You want to score, finish the takedown.  

 

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with the ref calling stalling or even fleeing the hold if it becomes obvious that the defending wrestler is solely looking for a stalemate............

 

 

1. Gulibon has both of Heil's legs

2. Gulibon popped the head out (and the shoulder out in period 2 which Heil himself seemed to think important)

3. Gulibon has Heil on his back for 20 seconds

 

If that is not control, then control needs to be redefined. 

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