Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MSU158

How Team National Champs are determined

Recommended Posts

If you are a proponent of the current system I can see your argument if you said you found it more entertaining. It adds drama to the tournament and certainly enhances the importance of the consolation bracket. But, HOW do you think it is a better representation of the better TEAM? In almost EVERY instance the whole team isn't even participating. In a lot of cases roughly 6-8 of the guys EVEN qualify for the tournament. In some cases you see the team championship photo and the non qualifiers aren't even in the picture. A tournament format simply says our best guys are further ahead of their competition than your 's are.

How do you possibly grow the casual fan base when you have to explain to them you need to watch Trackwrestling the 1st round and 2nd rounds on Thursday, EspnU on Friday morning for the quarterfinals and EspnU again in the evening for the Semis while hoping you can continue to follow the consolation bracket and then wake up early saturday morning to watch the end of the consolation bracket on EspnU so that you can finally watch the 3rd-8th place matches prior to the finals on ESPN Saturday night. While all this is going on a couple 100 people TOTAL have a clue how to calculate what team is actually winning. SO you actually have to wait for the tournament to update what team is in the lead so that when the finals come you may have some semblance of a clue what the teams need to do to win. Now that is hard enough to do for a diehard like me, and I enjoy doing it. IMAGINE how confusing this would be to a new fan and what the chances are that he has lost interest by the time you read him the 2nd sentence of my above ACCURATE explanation.

 

Now I actually truly like the current system even though I don't see it as a true gauge as the best 10 man team because it makes consolation brackets fun to watch. But I want DI wrestling to be going strong 50 years from now and I think it's fanbase needs to grow to do so. It's ONLY chance to pull out of fringe sport status is the casual fan base and the current system WILL NOT get that done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I have already said multiple times in multiple threads, I would rather see team championships decided by guys competing to win each and every match. If you think that happens in duals we are miles apart. In every dual I have seen that is remotely close in score, some weights wrestle to survive with dec or mdec.

Not to mention the wrestling at in March would suffer due to lack of bonus wrestling. Why take a risk if there is no team scoring?

There are many ways you could determine what makes the "best" team, currently every coach has been afforded the opportunity to recruit and coach based on the system we have today. Stop putting the cart before the horsie and get the National duals recognized as a dual team championship, make all the teams go. Stop messing with what works before you break it all.

If your plan was as good as you claim it is, you wouldn't care about being the sole team championship in college wrestling. Pretty simple, the standard is set. You want to win team in March, score bonus. Many sports have made adjustments to increase scoring for fans. What you are proposing is a step backwards in scoring and will inadvertently promote even more stalling (bellying) in March because there is no point to winning by tech fall.

 

Also, even though location can play a part in March, it plays a much much larger role in a dual format. I don't think Iowa loses to OSU at home this year. The PSU dual could have been much different at Rec Hall....

How does that show a TRUE team champion? It would have a much larger effect than a "bad seed" in March.

 

Penn State should be at the National Duals, but IF Iowa can redeem their loss to OSU, then there really isn't any questions are there? Iowa is the Dual Team National Champions. They also have a pretty damn good shot at the Team Championship in March as well.

 

To answer the question.... If your team's wrestler score more points than the other team's wrestlers then they were the best team. Sure if you change the format you will get a different result. Change duals so you can't belly out and you'll get a different result there as well.

 

Some have claimed that nobody cares about team scores.... I know that isn't true, I have seen many people following it closely. If you really don't care, why do you want it removed so badly? Agenda perhaps?

Again, if you can't have both... your plan s u c k s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As I have already said multiple times in multiple threads, I would rather see team championships decided by guys competing to win each and every match. If you think that happens in duals we are miles apart. In every dual I have seen that is remotely close in score, some weights wrestle to survive with dec or mdec.

Not to mention the wrestling at in March would suffer due to lack of bonus wrestling. Why take a risk if there is no team scoring?

There are many ways you could determine what makes the "best" team, currently every coach has been afforded the opportunity to recruit and coach based on the system we have today. Stop putting the cart before the horsie and get the National duals recognized as a dual team championship, make all the teams go. Stop messing with what works before you break it all.

If your plan was as good as you claim it is, you wouldn't care about being the sole team championship in college wrestling. Pretty simple, the standard is set. You want to win team in March, score bonus. Many sports have made adjustments to increase scoring for fans. What you are proposing is a step backwards in scoring and will inadvertently promote even more stalling (bellying) in March because there is no point to winning by tech fall.

 

Also, even though location can play a part in March, it plays a much much larger role in a dual format. I don't think Iowa loses to OSU at home this year. The PSU dual could have been much different at Rec Hall....

How does that show a TRUE team champion? It would have a much larger effect than a "bad seed" in March.

 

Penn State should be at the National Duals, but IF Iowa can redeem their loss to OSU, then there really isn't any questions are there? Iowa is the Dual Team National Champions. They also have a pretty damn good shot at the Team Championship in March as well.

 

To answer the question.... If your team's wrestler score more points than the other team's wrestlers then they were the best team. Sure if you change the format you will get a different result. Change duals so you can't belly out and you'll get a different result there as well.

 

Some have claimed that nobody cares about team scores.... I know that isn't true, I have seen many people following it closely. If you really don't care, why do you want it removed so badly? Agenda perhaps?

Again, if you can't have both... your plan s u c k s.

It's not that nobody cares about team scores, it's just that I don't think people attend simply for the team scores.

 

New Jersey has the individual tournament without team scoring, and a separate dual championship. Could anybody from there tell me how attendance is at Toms River North for State Duals, and how it compares to Boardwalk Hall's attendance for Individual States?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't claiming that, it has been used as an argument in threads on these very forums.

 

I hardly see how removing the scoring makes National Duals successful. If as you claim they aren't there for the scoring they would show up to both regardless.

 

where the idea fails is that it keeps being thrown around that apparently National Duals can't stand on it's own legs without lessening the tournament in March. Pretty risky gamble for such a "good plan"

 

Instead of continuing to spew the same crapola every thread, tell me why you can't have both.

 

Also, as far as the argument of one or two wrestlers scoring most of the team points...... I guess wrestling is the only sport you follow then. If you have never seen a single player carry a team in NCAA basketball you live in a cave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wasn't claiming that, it has been used as an argument in threads on these very forums.

 

I hardly see how removing the scoring makes National Duals successful. If as you claim they aren't there for the scoring they would show up to both regardless.

 

where the idea fails is that it keeps being thrown around that apparently National Duals can't stand on it's own legs without lessening the tournament in March. Pretty risky gamble for such a "good plan"

 

Instead of continuing to spew the same crapola every thread, tell me why you can't have both.

 

Also, as far as the argument of one or two wrestlers scoring most of the team points...... I guess wrestling is the only sport you follow then. If you have never seen a single player carry a team in NCAA basketball you live in a cave.

I'll be thrilled to answer that question...because the NCAA won't let us have both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wasn't claiming that, it has been used as an argument in threads on these very forums.

 

I hardly see how removing the scoring makes National Duals successful. If as you claim they aren't there for the scoring they would show up to both regardless.

 

where the idea fails is that it keeps being thrown around that apparently National Duals can't stand on it's own legs without lessening the tournament in March. Pretty risky gamble for such a "good plan"

 

Instead of continuing to spew the same crapola every thread, tell me why you can't have both.

 

Also, as far as the argument of one or two wrestlers scoring most of the team points...... I guess wrestling is the only sport you follow then. If you have never seen a single player carry a team in NCAA basketball you live in a cave.

I'll be thrilled to answer that question...because the NCAA won't let us have both.

 

Strict one sport one team championship policy from the NCAA. Makes sense.

 

The NCAA was willing to give us both a NCAA dual team championship and a NCAA individual championship but the proposal was shot down by the coaches and administrators not wanting duals to decide championships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If duals are the true draw as you have claimed, will they not hold up on their own without an official NCAA trophy?

 

That is fair.

 

I think they already do, and are moving further in that direction as more schools do a solid job of promoting their events, but as far as the National Duals standing without the NCAA, next year will be interesting. It has been hampered by programs not supporting the event over the years. Iowa, Oklahoma State, Penn State, and Lehigh are all consistently some of the top drawing programs yet they have all opted out of the event at different points over the years. It is similar to how the Alaska Shootout was one of the premier exempt tournament for college basketball but has fallen hard when ESPN began their own events and the big name programs stopped showing up. It is still a top event and draws well but it is a shell of its former self and not reaching its potential due to the lack of that upper level draws.

 

But honestly I compare it to the youth tournament circuit and how there are 37,326 National Championship Tournaments. It is only going to be taken seriously as a national championship if it has the best teams from all over the country attending. Kind of how the Northeast Duals use to have all the major programs and now they have a lot less top teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, and have said Penn State should support it. I just in no way want to risk lessening the go after it style the March tournament has become.

 

That being said, does it really come down to money? If a school is not a host what are the benefits of going versus hosting their own event? What is the meaning of the conference duals, just seeding? If Illinois gets blanked in their conference dual, what kind of draw will there be for that matchup again later should they meet up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dual championship is deplored by coaches cause it is one and done and they realize it is more matchup driven or maybe more variables to contend. i really like the idea of whichever scores most, aggregate points, wins to help prevent stalling or going for the the no aggression no danger moves. It is odd to me that a TF gets 5 and a F only gets six. F being the name of the game it should be worth a premium, relatively speaking the 3 4 5 6 scenario is a bit silly add em all up and get rid of arbitary retraints. I really enjoyed the old kick his butt til he gives up the ghost days. Unless I was the kickee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dual championship is deplored by coaches cause it is one and done and they realize it is more matchup driven or maybe more variables to contend. i really like the idea of whichever scores most, aggregate points, wins to help prevent stalling or going for the the no aggression no danger moves. It is odd to me that a TF gets 5 and a F only gets six. F being the name of the game it should be worth a premium, relatively speaking the 3 4 5 6 scenario is a bit silly add em all up and get rid of arbitary retraints. I really enjoyed the old kick his butt til he gives up the ghost days. Unless I was the kickee.

What if a dual championship was double-elimination like it is in baseball and softball?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dual championship is deplored by coaches cause it is one and done and they realize it is more matchup driven or maybe more variables to contend. i really like the idea of whichever scores most, aggregate points, wins to help prevent stalling or going for the the no aggression no danger moves. It is odd to me that a TF gets 5 and a F only gets six. F being the name of the game it should be worth a premium, relatively speaking the 3 4 5 6 scenario is a bit silly add em all up and get rid of arbitary retraints. I really enjoyed the old kick his butt til he gives up the ghost days. Unless I was the kickee.

I am also for increased scoring and less stalling, most of us probably are no matter what side of this issue we stand on. As far as the F vs TF issue though, I think this falls into the same category. I would rather see someone dismantled in a workman like fashion than to see someone trying to turn a guy for three periods. One slip and you could be pinned, you aren't accidentally tech falled. I do love the pins, but the Techs aren't far off imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you possibly grow the casual fan base when you have to explain to them you need to watch Trackwrestling the 1st round and 2nd rounds on Thursday....

 

Ah yes, the age old "dual meets will grow the fanbase" argument. Never mind the fact that the majority of NCAA duals throughout the country get a hundred people in attendance.

 

I get it - PSU vs. IOWA was awesome. It really was. But, it was a gigantic exception in a sea of unattended duals. Duals generally suck, and the attendance proves it. Check out the World Cup attendance and get back to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you possibly grow the casual fan base when you have to explain to them you need to watch Trackwrestling the 1st round and 2nd rounds on Thursday....

 

Ah yes, the age old "dual meets will grow the fanbase" argument. Never mind the fact that the majority of NCAA duals throughout the country get a hundred people in attendance.

 

I get it - PSU vs. IOWA was awesome. It really was. But, it was a gigantic exception in a sea of unattended duals. Duals generally suck, and the attendance proves it. Check out the World Cup attendance and get back to me.

 

I find it funny that you only quoted a VERY small portion of what I typed showing how convoluted the current format is and how difficult it would be for a casual fan to keep up with the Team Race. I also do not flat out say Duals are a GUARANTEE to grow the casual fanbase. However, I DO believe the current format ABSOLUTELY will NOT.

 

A perfect example of a successful format is NCAA Basketball. Do you really think they have that many fans? It is March Madness and how it is put together that DRAWS fans that truly don't even have a CLUE which teams are the best and who plays for which team, etc. THEY WANT TO FILL OUT BRACKETS. And also see an upset or 2. I am NOT delusional. I do not see Wrestling mimicing Basketball's format and suddenly gaining that same fanbase. I do, however, see a change to this format and an aggressive marketing campain along the lines of some type of partnership with MMA to gain exposure helping to grow this sport.

 

Again I will say I truly like the current format. I am a purist and enjoy the 3 days the NCAA Tournament provides. I am also a realist. Every time the tournament comes around I have to fight to get it on TV where I am at and NO MATTER how much explaining I try to do to friends or other patrons at the establishment I get roasted because we are supposed to be watching basketball. Unless something is done to get MORE fans this sport will continue to dwindle. Keeping the STATUS QUO is NOT the answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But, HOW do you think it is a better representation of the better TEAM? In almost EVERY instance the whole team isn't even participating. In a lot of cases roughly 6-8 of the guys EVEN qualify for the tournament.

The NCAAs start at the conference level for qualifying, the entire team participates, so it is a representation of the better team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But, HOW do you think it is a better representation of the better TEAM? In almost EVERY instance the whole team isn't even participating. In a lot of cases roughly 6-8 of the guys EVEN qualify for the tournament.

The NCAAs start at the conference level for qualifying, the entire team participates, so it is a representation of the better team.

 

I am starting to see this argument is like arguing Politics or Religion. No matter what you say you will NOT convince the other side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see room for two NCAA champs: Dual and Individual Tourney Style. Winning both in the same year would be a monumental accomplishment.

 

Agreed. Especially since the NCAA won't allow it.

 

How silly of me. You are right. Nothing ever changes in this world. Things are the same now as they have always been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But, HOW do you think it is a better representation of the better TEAM? In almost EVERY instance the whole team isn't even participating. In a lot of cases roughly 6-8 of the guys EVEN qualify for the tournament.

The NCAAs start at the conference level for qualifying, the entire team participates, so it is a representation of the better team.

 

I am starting to see this argument is like arguing Politics or Religion. No matter what you say you will NOT convince the other side.

 

There are (at least) 3 sides though. 1) Dual 2) Tourney 3) Both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can and have convinced me that National Duals is a good, maybe even a great idea with the new format. You will not convince me that we can or should do without team championship in March. Seems like most of us agree that they could both be good for the sport, we just disagree that you have to fudge with one to make the other successful.

Get Cael, Brands and others that voted against to be more involved, let them have something just to get involvement. Then if the tournament is as successful as you suspect it will be, there will be a lot less argument against it.

From my point, you guys have absolutely no proof what-so-ever that this will be successful across the board. Whatever points you have brought up in these forums and on twitter don't show me that the tournament in March needs to be involved in any way shape or form.

Before I buy a new pair of shoes, I try them on. Many times they look great but they just don't fit right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you possibly grow the casual fan base when you have to explain to them you need to watch Trackwrestling the 1st round and 2nd rounds on Thursday....

 

Ah yes, the age old "dual meets will grow the fanbase" argument. Never mind the fact that the majority of NCAA duals throughout the country get a hundred people in attendance.

 

I get it - PSU vs. IOWA was awesome. It really was. But, it was a gigantic exception in a sea of unattended duals. Duals generally suck, and the attendance proves it. Check out the World Cup attendance and get back to me.

 

You do know that college basketball use to draw very few fans too. They also use to struggle to get fans to travel for games, even when the teams were in the final four. It was the NCAA tournament and the excitement that came from it that sparked the increase in attendance at home games and fueled the growth in arena sizes.

 

This is the same reason high school basketball and football games don't get many fans but when the team makes it to districts/regions/state all of a sudden people care to attend the games.

 

If you think we are doing good with wrestling as we have it now then we disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You can and have convinced me that National Duals is a good, maybe even a great idea with the new format. You will not convince me that we can or should do without team championship in March. Seems like most of us agree that they could both be good for the sport, we just disagree that you have to fudge with one to make the other successful.

Get Cael, Brands and others that voted against to be more involved, let them have something just to get involvement. Then if the tournament is as successful as you suspect it will be, there will be a lot less argument against it.

From my point, you guys have absolutely no proof what-so-ever that this will be successful across the board. Whatever points you have brought up in these forums and on twitter don't show me that the tournament in March needs to be involved in any way shape or form.

Before I buy a new pair of shoes, I try them on. Many times they look great but they just don't fit right.

 

We know what doesn't work and that is continuing what we have been doing. I am all for a change that has promise even if it isn't perfect. I am willing to gamble on the sport and believe that the coaching staffs and administrations will promote duals with their heightened impact on the season in an effort to increase the fan base and build rivalries. We can always continue to rework it. But to have a blatant 'we can't change things policy because there is one good event is just a hindrance to our sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A perfect example of a successful format is NCAA Basketball. Do you really think they have that many fans? It is March Madness and how it is put together that DRAWS fans that truly don't even have a CLUE which teams are the best and who plays for which team, etc. THEY WANT TO FILL OUT BRACKETS. And also see an upset or 2.

This is because of gambling.

 

Nothing more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...