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jammen

Massa chokes out Welch

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Massa uses his favorite rear headlock for a td, but Welch passes out before getting turned. The ref is about to slap the mat for a pin when he notices that Welch is unconscious. Eventually Welch wakes up and the ref awards 3 nf and returns him to center in the bottom position as if nothing had ever happened.

 

Pick one:

 

1) Is it legal to choke out your opponent and is there no penalty if you do so?

2) Is it legal to feign unconsciousness to avoid a pin?

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Here it is right out of the rule book

 

The ref screwed the pooch! Welch should have been declared the winner

 

Any hold with pressure exerted over the opponent’s mouth, nose, throat or

neck that restricts breathing or circulation is illegal.

 

6.4 Injury From Illegal Action

Each time a contestant is injured by an opponent who uses an illegal hold or

who commits an act of unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct,

and is unable to continue, that wrestler is allowed a maximum of two minutes

of recovery time to be ready to wrestle. This time does not count against that

wrestler’s cumulative 1½ minutes of injury time. If that contestant is not able to

continue at the end of two minutes of recovery time, then the match is awarded to

the injured contestant and scored as a default. (See Rule 6.1.7.) However, if the

injured contestant recovers and wrestling resumes, that contestant then cannot be

awarded the match by default for this illegal action.

 

 

 

If a contestant is rendered unconscious or shows signs of a concussion or spinal

injury, that wrestler shall not be permitted to continue in the match or return

to competition without approval of the team physician or the team physician’s

designee according to each institution’s Concussion Management Plan. Studentathletes

diagnosed with a concussion shall not return to activity (or competition)

for the remainder of that day. (See Appendix B for detailed information on

concussions.)

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Even a legal hold becomes illegal if it is choking the opponent (or in this case, restricting blood flow to the brain). It's a bit of a paradox...many perfectly executed moves such as a front headlock do apply a choke and will cause the opponent to pass out if held long enough, which therefore makes it illegal, although most of the time this doesn't happen because very few guys get the hold perfect (Dave Schultz and Arsen Fadzaev did though), and for those that do they generally let go and go behind before the ref knows what's up. But if the ref sees a choke being applied, it should at the very least be stopped as potentially dangerous if it looks incidental, but if it looks like it's on purpose than it should be called illegal and the opponent would get a point. The tough part is, how do you determine intent? Many of these choke holds look like good moves, like the front headlock for example, and most coaches would throw a fit if a front headlock was stopped as illegal every time. Although that exact thing is what happened to Dave Schultz in the 1984 Olympic because he and Mark built up a reputation as "dirty" wrestlers, so then the refs were looking for anything to call against them.

 

As far as loss of consciousness, getting choked out is different from getting a concussion, so most doctors I would think would instantly clear a wrestler to continue wrestling immediately. As long as blood flow to the brain is only impeded for a few seconds, damage appears to be minimal, although still it's not something you'd like to see much of in wrestling.

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I'm just thankful that the strangler isn't an Iowa Hawkeye. Can you imagine this boards reaction if the culprit was Ramos? Or Kentucky Mudflap? Stop for a second and just think about what the reaction would be on here. They'd be the dirties bunch a sons a beaches since Nick Simmons. But since it's Massa it's cool. Full disclosure I'm a Massa fan. He is in fact on my fantasy team (he is not a high scorer fantasy wise). I just think the hypocrisy on the board can be off the charts.

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Nothing mentioned about intent in the rule book it just states:

 

Any hold with pressure exerted over the opponent’s mouth, nose, throat or

neck that restricts breathing or circulation is illegal.

Right, but the ref always has the option of calling potentially dangerous if it looks like it might be heading towards an illegal move, but isn't yet. This is kind of a grey area, because it's difficult to determine if a hold is cutting off circulation until the guy is actually passed out, and if he isn't passed out yet, then it looks like perfect technique.

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It appears to be the same hold that Fleming from Clarion uses. From what I have seen of it it should be ruled illegal before something horrible happens. If they could do away with the figure 4 then this should go too. I think "chokes out" is an accurate discription of the move.

 

I have also noticed that when those who depend on it does not work...... they are don't appear to be much more than average wrestlers.

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It appears to be the same hold that Fleming from Clarion uses. From what I have seen of it it should be ruled illegal before something horrible happens. If they could do away with the figure 4 then this should go too. I think "chokes out" is an accurate discription of the move.

 

I have also noticed that when those who depend on it does not work...... they are don't appear to be much more than average wrestlers.

 

The move that Fleming uses is not a choke out, the pressure is all on the side of the jaw. I have seen Fleming wrestle since HS and have never seen anyone pass out because their airway is blocked.

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I think I have heard opponents of fleming give varied discriptions from choking to feeling like your jaw is about to break or your teeth about to come out. At any rate it appears every bit as painful as the original figure 4 was before it was ruled an illegal move.

 

On another note. Given the success of those who use it (and I only know of Massa and Fleming), I wonder why more wrestlers have not picked it up as a pinning combination.

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I think I have heard opponents of fleming give varied discriptions from choking to feeling like your jaw is about to break or your teeth about to come out. At any rate it appears every bit as painful as the original figure 4 was before it was ruled an illegal move.

 

On another note. Given the success of those who use it (and I only know of Massa and Fleming), I wonder why more wrestlers have not picked it up as a pinning combination.

Can you provide a link to a video showing this move, or give a brief description? I'm not sure I've seen what you're referencing.

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this happenned to me my sophomore year of high school.

 

it was for 3rd place in the conference tournament, i was exciting to make it to the regional tourney for the first so i didnt care about the match at the time (bad decision). i tired throwing a headlock and he caught my arm right next to my head. next thing i know i woke up surrounded by a bunch of people they said i was out cold on the mat for a good 30 seconds.... wicked rush

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fleming's move cuts off blood flow to the brain to the point the wrestler "grays" out. and once they get turned, the pressure is released and the next thing they see is the ref counting

 

solution to the problem:

 

1) don't get taken down

 

2) don't take down when it's your choice.

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fleming's move cuts off blood flow to the brain to the point the wrestler "grays" out. and once they get turned, the pressure is released and the next thing they see is the ref counting

 

solution to the problem:

 

1) don't get taken down

 

2) don't take down when it's your choice.

 

He often locks it up before a TD is awarded.

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Fleming does it without a choke. Sometimes it slips to a choke but he aims his lock for the face. I know many who have experienced it first hand. Guys who try to copy it (massa) are the ones who will end up making it dangerous

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Massa uses his favorite rear headlock for a td, but Welch passes out before getting turned. The ref is about to slap the mat for a pin when he notices that Welch is unconscious. Eventually Welch wakes up and the ref awards 3 nf and returns him to center in the bottom position as if nothing had ever happened.

 

Pick one:

 

1) Is it legal to choke out your opponent and is there no penalty if you do so?

2) Is it legal to feign unconsciousness to avoid a pin?

 

I hate to say it, only because I think I'll get criticized, but I was watching this live and thought Welch was faking it. He was going to his back, Massa didn't even have it tight, and out of nowhere, he was out. Then, like you said, he recovered awfully quickly as if nothing had happened.

 

The move is legal as Massa's applies it. That's not to say it should be legal, but at the present, it is. It's also nothing like the Fleming move. That's across the jaw and, from what I've heard, incredibly painful.

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