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jammen

Massa chokes out Welch

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Here's another explanation. I used to have close battles in practice with the guy a weight above me. One day I put him on his back with a half, and he went limp, passed out, just for 5 seconds or so. Coach checked him, everything seemed ok, practice resumed. About 10 minutes later the same thing happened, lights out. I started thinking he was faking it. The third time it happened, I was sure he was faking it. Coach sent him to the hospital to get checked out. Turns out he had a small tumor high in his neck/base of the brain area. Any pressure in that area (half nelson) resulted in a power outage. He had a relatively simple surgery and was fine.

Just sayin'.

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Massa uses his favorite rear headlock for a td, but Welch passes out before getting turned. The ref is about to slap the mat for a pin when he notices that Welch is unconscious. Eventually Welch wakes up and the ref awards 3 nf and returns him to center in the bottom position as if nothing had ever happened.

 

Pick one:

 

1) Is it legal to choke out your opponent and is there no penalty if you do so?

2) Is it legal to feign unconsciousness to avoid a pin?

 

I hate to say it, only because I think I'll get criticized, but I was watching this live and thought Welch was faking it. He was going to his back, Massa didn't even have it tight, and out of nowhere, he was out. Then, like you said, he recovered awfully quickly as if nothing had happened.

 

The move is legal as Massa's applies it. That's not to say it should be legal, but at the present, it is. It's also nothing like the Fleming move. That's across the jaw and, from what I've heard, incredibly painful.

There is a general restriction about using holds for punishment only. Obviously, you need to have only defined but ...

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I hate to say it, only because I think I'll get criticized, but I was watching this live and thought Welch was faking it.

 

Is this a failed attempt at humor? Welch was choked out on his feet while still fighting the td. Only when Massa tossed this rag doll to his back did the ref notice that Welch looked dead. The recovery time took several minutes while the refs wandered around in a confused state.

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Here's another explanation. I used to have close battles in practice with the guy a weight above me. One day I put him on his back with a half, and he went limp, passed out, just for 5 seconds or so. Coach checked him, everything seemed ok, practice resumed. About 10 minutes later the same thing happened, lights out. I started thinking he was faking it. The third time it happened, I was sure he was faking it. Coach sent him to the hospital to get checked out. Turns out he had a small tumor high in his neck/base of the brain area. Any pressure in that area (half nelson) resulted in a power outage. He had a relatively simple surgery and was fine.

Just sayin'.

Interesting - and lucky for your teammate. Otherwise, his tumor may have grown larger undetected.

 

BTW, I know a judo instructor who chokes guys out using only moderate pressure to the side of the neck. He says it's a matter of knowing exactly where to apply the hold for a blood choke. They usually revive by themselves in a matter of seconds with no ill effects. (He avoids chocking the windpipe and rarely teaches it - says it's potentially dangerous unless done by an advanced judoka.)

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Anyone who champions this move consider you are only contributing to the further demise of wrestling. All we need is the media with an agenda to get a hold of these incidents on this supposedly legal move.

 

Massa, Alton, Fleming and Simmons (and their coaches) all are aware what they are doing when they apply the pressure on the side of the neck and cut off blood to the brain. All of these wrestlers are quite talented and do not need to use this crap to be successful.

 

Any use of these "sleeper" moves with pressure applied to the carotid on side of the neck, for what ever reason, should be illegal.

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a perfectly executed front headlock SHOULD NOT apply a choke, if it does, it should be stopped. That hand should be on the chin, now granted, those who've competed know how to drop the thumb down to constitute a choke. But you don't teach front head technique using any type of choke.

 

being a former northampton wrestler, every coach in the surrounding 200 miles would scream to the ref about a choke as soon as a northampton wrestler got in the particular front head position..."he's choking him"

 

Even a legal hold becomes illegal if it is choking the opponent (or in this case, restricting blood flow to the brain). It's a bit of a paradox...many perfectly executed moves such as a front headlock do apply a choke and will cause the opponent to pass out if held long enough, which therefore makes it illegal, although most of the time this doesn't happen because very few guys get the hold perfect (Dave Schultz and Arsen Fadzaev did though), and for those that do they generally let go and go behind before the ref knows what's up. But if the ref sees a choke being applied, it should at the very least be stopped as potentially dangerous if it looks incidental, but if it looks like it's on purpose than it should be called illegal and the opponent would get a point. The tough part is, how do you determine intent? Many of these choke holds look like good moves, like the front headlock for example, and most coaches would throw a fit if a front headlock was stopped as illegal every time. Although that exact thing is what happened to Dave Schultz in the 1984 Olympic because he and Mark built up a reputation as "dirty" wrestlers, so then the refs were looking for anything to call against them.

 

As far as loss of consciousness, getting choked out is different from getting a concussion, so most doctors I would think would instantly clear a wrestler to continue wrestling immediately. As long as blood flow to the brain is only impeded for a few seconds, damage appears to be minimal, although still it's not something you'd like to see much of in wrestling.

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Any use of these "sleeper" moves with pressure applied to the carotid on side of the neck, for what ever reason, should be illegal.

 

I hear you, but there is a fine line between legal and illegal then. A regular front headlock can and often does apply a lot of pressure on the carotid. Should front headlocks now be illegal? While I'm not advocating choke holds, it is not so easy to spot a potentially dangerous move from a legal one in a lot of cases.

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a perfectly executed front headlock SHOULD NOT apply a choke, if it does, it should be stopped. That hand should be on the chin, now granted, those who've competed know how to drop the thumb down to constitute a choke. But you don't teach front head technique using any type of choke.

Depends on the front headlock, and I don't advocate teaching kids to choke, but if you perform a "head in the hole" front headlock the way the Schultz brothers and Arsen Fadzaev did, it absolutely cuts off blood supply and it has nothing to do with dropping the thumb down. The way they locked their hands in the armpit caused the opponents trapped arm to push against their neck, and it makes for a very tight lock. If you just lock it up for a second or two, the opponent doesn't even realize they are being choked, but it's a very tight hold and you can snap and spin easily. Most people would call this "perfect technique". But if you hold on to that "perfect" position longer, the opponent will be passed out. And both Dave Schultz and Fadzaev scored many takedowns on guys because they started to choke them out until they softened up a bit. Here's Fadzaev scoring the first takedown against Kenny Monday, in a match that Monday ultimately won. Monday fights hard but Fadzaev just holds on until he starts to choke him and you can see Monday tap out and give up the takedown. This is definitely illegal, but the front headlock position was "perfect" technique right up until the point where he kept holding on too long. But you can't make front headlocks illegal.

 

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Your brain has four blood "feeds"-----a left and right carotid artery, and a left and right vertebral artery.

In a perfectly formed human, they go into a small, inner-tube shaped circle ["circle of willis"] at the base of your brain, and then the brain is supplied by offshoots from this circle. You can find pictures of this system in anatomy books.

 

The circle is supposed to provide redundancy so that if blood is cut-off from one or more supply source, the others can supply everything that is needed through the circle. The two vertebral arteries are inside your vertebrae and can't get shut off from pressure, but that isn't true of the two carotids.

 

Here is the point to be made: There is remarkable variation in the perfection of this circle and the systems. Well over 50% of humans seem to have malformations of the circle system, which means that shutting off one person's left carotid might have nearly no effect, while shutting off the same carotid on another person can put him unconscious very quickly.

 

I know this stuff because my father had some stroke symptoms and I did a little studying before meeting with the doctor. I had to point out to the doctor on the MRI that there appeared to be a "missing" artery, which he apparently hadn't noticed, as well as discontinuities in Dad's "circle". It seems that even most doctors are unaware of the degree of variation from "design". Any MD's out there, please chime in.

 

But I don't think Flemings move works because of choking. If you get into it, it puts tremendous pressure on the back of your neck. Unbelievable, in fact. However,.....if you shift the forearm enough, you can get into a choke situation. It needs to be watched carefully.

 

http://www.mgoblue.com/allaccess/?sport=m-wrestl

 

The Massa interview contains highlights of the match against Harger, showing the move. From those limited clips, its certainly nasty, but didn't look like there was trouble breathing, or that there was a cut-off of blood. Maybe a full video would look different.

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