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Jimmy Gullibon to PSU--Mistake IMO

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He was a R12 placer twice and a starter on maybe the greatest team in history. Placed 2nd in the Big Ten last year also. I don't feel sorry for him and he should not be killing himself either. Hell of a great wrestling career for most.

Edited by PRyan2012

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Getting bigger and gaining muscle does not mean growth except in the physical sense. Wrestling growth and physical growth are not the same. Regardless of who you are you only have so much potential, adding 10 pounds of muscle and growing another inch does not make you gain potential. If the only area in an individuals various attributes (size, quickness, intelligence, etc.) they have not reached maximum potential is in physical size they will not advance much at the college level since everybody is still growing.

 

There is simply a point where you have to put in an exceeding larger amount of effort to achieve a limited amount of return. That is a fact. 

nonsense that there is not potential to grow tactically and technically after age 18 or 19. it's silly to think a person whose brain just recently fully developed can't evolve in wrestling.

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He was a R12 placer twice and a starter on the maybe the greatest team in history. Placed 2nd in the Big Ten last year also. I don't feel sorry for him and he should no be killing himself either. Hell of a great wrestling career for most.

 

Agreed.  Everyone needs to get off Jimmy G's ass. 

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nonsense that there is not potential to grow tactically and technically after age 18 or 19. it's silly to think a person whose brain just recently fully developed can't evolve in wrestling.

I never said there was no potential just that some have already neared (or potentially reached) their maximum (and that number is growing) at an earlier age and relative to others their growth in college is far less. To think anything else is quite honestly just silly. 

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none of them have come close to their potential at 18 or 19. any lack of development, barring some physical injuries, is a result of a lack of effort, enthusiasm or motivation. look at it any other way and someone is just making an excuse.

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none of them have come close to their potential at 18 or 19. any lack of development, barring some physical injuries, is a result of a lack of effort, enthusiasm or motivation. look at it any other way and someone is just making an excuse.

While that may have been true 15 years ago it is not true today. We may have a small sample of the dedicated year round wrestlers at this time but in another 15 years my assertion will be proven correct. 

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none of them have come close to their potential at 18 or 19. any lack of development, barring some physical injuries, is a result of a lack of effort, enthusiasm or motivation. look at it any other way and someone is just making an excuse.

You really don't think some teenagers develop faster than others? I was 6'3" 260lbs in 10th grade and was done growing while my buddy was 5'10" 140lbs his senior year. By the end of his freshman year in college he was 6'2" 190lbs.

 

Some kids hit puberty quicker and harder at an earlier age and are basically men competing with boys. They can still grow and improve in college but the other kids will catch up.

 

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You really don't think some teenagers develop faster than others? I was 6'3" 260lbs in 10th grade and was done growing while my buddy was 5'10" 140lbs his senior year. By the end of his freshman year in college he was 6'2" 190lbs.

 

Some kids hit puberty quicker and harder at an earlier age and are basically men competing with boys. They can still grow and improve in college but the other kids will catch up.

 

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of course i agree some develop faster. i don't think development ever stops unless the individual choses to stop developing. barring some injuries, kids who get caught do so because of a lack of effort. 

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With year round wrestling, high level club coaching, access to all kinds of summer camps, a kid can and in some cases does reach his potential before leaving high school. Now that will not be true of most kids but I assure you it is for some. This would not have been the case 20 or even 10 years ago but times have changed.

 

And keep in mind growth is relative. You and I may have the exact same potential but if I am better trained earlier in my life I may appear to have more potential but in reality only reached it earlier.

 

 

Oh and the S-Curve always applies in some form.

 

No, this is not true. Also, you greatly oversell the training these kids get in HS. They aren't consistently wrestling with world class wrestlers on a daily basis. There are great strides that can be made even amongst the best HS wrestlers. Even kids like Mark Hall and Spencer Lee are far from finished products. If they still have room for improvement, who doesn't? The training these kids got was better than just about every other HS kid in history.

 

Name me one kid that was a "finished product" in HS?

Edited by bigmik

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of course i agree some develop faster. i don't think development ever stops unless the individual choses to stop developing. barring some injuries, kids who get caught do so because of a lack of effort. 

Development always stops at a certain point in any of life's endeavors. You can only run so fast, jump so high, lift so much, ect. That is a fact of life. 

 

Wrestling itself is a simple sport with limited variables in strategy. Wrestling is not a complicated sport from that perspective so after that it's 100% physical.   

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Development always stops at a certain point in any of life's endeavors. You can only run so fast, jump so high, lift so much, ect. That is a fact of life. 

 

Wrestling itself is a simple sport with limited variables in strategy. Wrestling is not a complicated sport from that perspective so after that it's 100% physical.

 

There are hundreds, if not thousands of techniques to learn. No one has come close to mastering them all.

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No, this is not true. Also, you greatly oversell the training these kids get in HS. They aren't consistently wrestling with world class wrestlers on a daily basis. There are great strides that can be made even amongst the best HS wrestlers. Even kids like Mark Hall and Spencer Lee are far from finished products. If they still have room for improvement, who doesn't? The training these kids got was better than just about every other HS kid in history.

 

Name me one kid that was a "finished product" in HS?

I'd say Mocco and Schlatter were closed to a finished product.

 

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No, this is not true. Also, you greatly oversell the training these kids get in HS. They aren't consistently wrestling with world class wrestlers on a daily basis. There are great strides that can be made even amongst the best HS wrestlers. Even kids like Mark Hall and Spencer Lee are far from finished products. If they still have room for improvement, who doesn't? The training these kids got was better than just about every other HS kid in history.

 

Name me one kid that was a "finished product" in HS?

Wow, just wow. OK lets make it simple.

 

NO KID HAS EVER REACHED 100% POTENTIAL BEFORE GRADUATING HIGH SCHOOL. 

 

Now that that is out of the way, there are a growing number of kids, who for a variety of reasons, are getting significantly closer to that 100% mark way earlier than kids did just 10 years ago, that is a fact. Their growth potential in college is very small since they already are at a very high level. If they were already at 95% of their maximum potential they only have 5% to grow, i.e. limited growth.

 

I am not overselling the training some of these kids get in high school, since many are getting that training in private clubs. high school in this context is a time-frame not a location. My kid's high school coach never taught him one thing about wrestling since his club coaches were way more experienced and worked with him year round. 

 

Now he did teach him things about being a better person and other social skills. You know how teenagers are Mom and Dad just don't understand them and their problems so they will turn to mentors with whom they develop a relationship.   

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Another wrestler I wonder about is Isaac Jordan. I realize he was going to WI at birth because of family, but it seemed like he didn't develop much in 4 years. He came in really good but never got over the hump. Would a different environment have benefited him?

 

What?  Isaac improved massively from his freshman to junior year. 4x AA, 7 7 2 4.  

 

He wasn't even a top 10 recruit... I think something like #30.  I find it hard to believe he would have had a better career elsewhere.

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I said: "If someone has reached their peak development in HS, it's not because they couldn't get any better. No one is close to a finished product at that level and age. If they don't get better in college, it's because something else went wrong."

 

I never said that kids, on average, weren't closer to their "ceiling" than in previous years. So I'm not sure what's up with the irrelevant points you're making.

Edited by bigmik

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There are hundreds, if not thousands of techniques to learn. No one has come close to mastering them all.

But what I said is 100% accurate. Every person regardless of who they are, is only capable of certain things physically and attempting to master those outside of your physical ability will not increase your potential. I cannot jump high enough to dunk a basketball so even attempting to learn that set of skills will not increase my potential. 

 

Wrestling in and of itself is a very simple sport from a strategy perspective. There is a clock, a score, three positions, and three periods. Choices are very often very simple and binary based upon the specifics of you and your opponent. Sometimes assessing them in-situ can be difficult at first, but if you wrestle 100-200 matches per year you will develop that skill long before college. 

 

BTW there are not thousands of techniques in wrestling.  

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Wow, just wow. OK lets make it simple.

 

NO KID HAS EVER REACHED 100% POTENTIAL BEFORE GRADUATING HIGH SCHOOL. 

 

Now that that is out of the way, there are a growing number of kids, who for a variety of reasons, are getting significantly closer to that 100% mark way earlier than kids did just 10 years ago, that is a fact. Their growth potential in college is very small since they already are at a very high level. If they were already at 95% of their maximum potential they only have 5% to grow, i.e. limited growth.

 

I am not overselling the training some of these kids get in high school, since many are getting that training in private clubs. high school in this context is a time-frame not a location. My kid's high school coach never taught him one thing about wrestling since his club coaches were way more experienced and worked with him year round. 

 

Now he did teach him things about being a better person and other social skills. You know how teenagers are Mom and Dad just don't understand them and their problems so they will turn to mentors with whom they develop a relationship.

 

Btw, not all private training is world class. I would say most of it is not at that level. Is even the average "stud" wrestler in HS getting trained by at least a Cael level coach?

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But what I said is 100% accurate. Every person regardless of who they are, is only capable of certain things physically and attempting to master those outside of your physical ability will not increase your potential. I cannot jump high enough to dunk a basketball so even attempting to learn that set of skills will not increase my potential. 

 

Wrestling in and of itself is a very simple sport from a strategy perspective. There is a clock, a score, three positions, and three periods. Choices are very often very simple and binary based upon the specifics of you and your opponent. Sometimes assessing them in-situ can be difficult at first, but if you wrestle 100-200 matches per year you will develop that skill long before college. 

 

BTW there are not thousands of techniques in wrestling.

 

Of course there are limits. I have been saying that consistently for years around here. Many don't like it, but it's the truth. There are some who will never be the #1 I'm the world. I never suggested otherwise.

 

Yeah, there may be a thousand. Not thousands, you are correct.

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Btw, not all private training is world class. I would say most of it is not at that level. Is even the average "stud" wrestler in HS getting trained by at least a Cael level coach?

And I never said it was, but there are a lot of great private clubs who have DI AAs and even National champions in the room. Both of the clubs my kid wrestled with had a plethora of both and one even had a World Champion and Olympic Medalist in the room about 5 months out of the year. 

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And I never said it was, but there are a lot of great private clubs who have DI AAs and even National champions in the room. Both of the clubs my kid wrestled with had a plethora of both and one even had a World Champion and Olympic Medalist in the room about 5 months out of the year.

 

Yeah, what you just described I wouldn't consider world class on average. (Depends on who the AA and national champions who were coaching were)

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Getting bigger and gaining muscle does not mean growth except in the physical sense. Wrestling growth and physical growth are not the same. Regardless of who you are you only have so much potential, adding 10 pounds of muscle and growing another inch does not make you gain potential. If the only area in an individuals various attributes (size, quickness, intelligence, etc.) they have not reached maximum potential is in physical size they will not advance much at the college level since everybody is still growing.

 

There is simply a point where you have to put in an exceeding larger amount of effort to achieve a limited amount of return. That is a fact. 

"much"?  

Men simply do not mature at 18.  A person who becomes physically more capable becomes closer to their maximum potential.  Anyway, physicality is only aspect.  Every aspect of wrestling potentially benefits from physical and mental maturation.

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When you're talking youth clubs it doesn't matter. If you're talking about training the limited number of one-in-a-million kids with the potential to be an Olympian, then it matters but they are found early and end up at the OTC at some point in their lives anyway 

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