Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Gantry

Kolat on redshirting

Recommended Posts

 

The reality is that most guys that redshirt don't end up with four post seasons.  The attrition rate is very high.  People only look at the success stories.

 

Most college wrestlers don't end up with four post seasons, period.  That's a function of roster sizes.

 

Is there evidence that redshirting harms graduation rates?  Does the NWCA keep statistics on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most college wrestlers don't end up with four post seasons, period.  That's a function of roster sizes.

 

Is there evidence that redshirting harms graduation rates?  Does the NWCA keep statistics on that?

 

I should have been more clear.  I didn't mean competing in four post seasons but rather still a member of the team in good standing with the ability to compete in the post season for four years.  Remember, if you redshirt, you don't get a season back due to injury.  Additionally, very few programs have more than one or two seniors on their roster.

 

Graduation rate wouldn't be a good metric.  There are a lot of athletes that get burned out with wrestling in their third and fourth year who stay in school and still graduate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is because they can literally compete in their first year at Oklahoma State and Penn State without it counting against them.  They are competing.  Redshirts can get 50 matches against D1 competition and as long as they put "UNA" after their school name on a bracket we look the other way and say they aren't really a college wrestler.

 

What would kids do if a redshirt year meant training day in and day out without a single match?  Sure, some would stick it out.  But you'd quickly see a change where kids would go to where they could actually wrestle.  What do wrestlers like most?  Wrestling.  But right now kids can have their cake and eat it too.

how would getting rid of the redshirt change this? it would be the same except they could possibly get a couple varsity dual meet matches. coaches could manage their back ups' schedule the exact same way, if that's what the wrestlers preferred, only now take a couple weekends a year and change what the RS kids were doing in a normal RS year and instead put them in the dual meet line up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how would getting rid of the redshirt change this? it would be the same except they could possibly get a couple varsity dual meet matches. coaches could manage their back ups' schedule the exact same way, if that's what the wrestlers preferred, only now take a couple weekends a year and change what the RS kids were doing in a normal RS year and instead put them in the dual meet line up. 

 

You keep saying getting rid of redshirting but what you mean is expanding redshirting to allow for more exemptions to what counts as actually competing.  This proposal expands redshirting to allow competition in everything except for a conference tournament.

 

Restricting redshirting to the same policy as other sports is actually removing redshirting (from competition).  That is when you'll see the change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You keep saying getting rid of redshirting but what you mean is expanding redshirting to allow for more exemptions to what counts as actually competing.  This proposal expands redshirting to allow competition in everything except for a conference tournament.

 

Restricting redshirting to the same policy as other sports is actually removing redshirting (from competition).  That is when you'll see the change.

call it what everyone you want but I'm talking about Kolat's tweet and what he and Papadatos are advocating. I think that will be a positive for the sport. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You keep saying getting rid of redshirting but what you mean is expanding redshirting to allow for more exemptions to what counts as actually competing.  This proposal expands redshirting to allow competition in everything except for a conference tournament.

 

Restricting redshirting to the same policy as other sports is actually removing redshirting (from competition).  That is when you'll see the change.

 

 

I would prefer to leave 1 redshirt year but start the eligibility clock when they graduate HS.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under this proposal, I don't understand why they are advoating for only one year in which an athlete can compete all year and decide not to go to the post season. The department of education now uses the six year graduation rate as a key performance metric due to so many kids taking six years or more to compete.  If wrestling wants to be cutting edge and allow fans to watch wrestlers compete for many years then we should just say as long as a guy is enrolled in college they can compete.

 

Rules make no sense.  Just throw them all out so they fit your whims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under this proposal, I don't understand why they are advoating for only one year in which an athlete can compete all year and decide not to go to the post season. The department of education now uses the six year graduation rate as a key performance metric due to so many kids taking six years or more to compete.  If wrestling wants to be cutting edge and allow fans to watch wrestlers compete for many years then we should just say as long as a guy is enrolled in college they can compete.

 

Rules make no sense.  Just throw them all out so they fit your whims.

doesn't sound that drastic to me. Only 4 postseasons (which would include a dual meet tournament if it is added to the schedule) but 5 years to wrestle in the regular season. since guys are wrestling 50 matches unattached against other enrolled D1 wrestlers during their RS season already, there would be very little practical change to how the season operates.

 

guys get 4 shots at an NCAA title, that's what matters most to the individual. teams get more flexibility to put a quality product out on the mat for dual meets. thats what matters most to the fans. 

 

wrestling would be unique within the NCAA with regards the way they handle redshirts (or eligibility or whatever you want to call it) but it is already in a unique sport within the NCAA as an individual sport with weight classes. 

 

haven't yet heard a downside but the idea is still very new so I am very much interested in hearing potential problems. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for what it's worth, Hofstra's coach Papadatos replies to Kolat on twitter and seems pretty positive on the idea. I don't think the likes of Campbell or Hofstra are too concerned with beating Penn State or OK State in a dual meet. More just trying to avoid forfeits in duals due to roster caps and eligibility restrictions. 

who?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is because they can literally compete in their first year at Oklahoma State and Penn State without it counting against them.  They are competing.  Redshirts can get 50 matches against D1 competition and as long as they put "UNA" after their school name on a bracket we look the other way and say they aren't really a college wrestler.

 

What would kids do if a redshirt year meant training day in and day out without a single match?  Sure, some would stick it out.  But you'd quickly see a change where kids would go to where they could actually wrestle.  What do wrestlers like most?  Wrestling.  But right now kids can have their cake and eat it too.

ADs, school presidents, compliance officers and coaches of other teams not afforded that luxury hate this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can dress it up however you want, and say we are unique special snowflakes

 

But you are asking the NCAA for 5 years of eligibility for all of our athletes

 

It is entitlement mentality

coaches have mentioned that there are plenty of sports specific exceptions to the NCAA rule book. do you know how those sports got them? was it a case of hubris and entitlement paying off? I am curious because I am admittedly not an expert on how the NCAA operated but am interested in learning from the experts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

coaches have mentioned that there are plenty of sports specific exceptions to the NCAA rule book. do you know how those sports got them? was it a case of hubris and entitlement paying off? I am curious because I am admittedly not an expert on how the NCAA operated but am interested in learning from the experts. 

 

You're right.  There are a lot of sport specific exemptions.  Things like the NWCA All-Star Classic is exempt from being a countable date on a team or athlete's schedule.

 

However, there is an overarching framework within all NCAA sports and the NCAA philosophies which this would run afoul of.  It isn't to say that it is impossible to implement.  Anything can happen if the membership is on board with the change (or given the reorganization, if the P5 conferences are on board).  However, I don't see the membership supporting this concept because it is so drastic a change from the most basic tenants of collegiate athletics and it isn't a change that would impact the Big Ten which is really the only P5 conference in which there is large representation in wrestling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having athletes compete for 5 years is very convenient for the coaches, but what about the athletes?  It needs to stop being the norm for athletes to move on with their lives in 5 years instead of 4.  They are losing a year of actual income, simply because they have no choice but to redshirt in order to be competitive with everyone else who redshirts.  They should have 4 years in college and compete 4 years.  

 

4 years to compete 4 is also better for the sport overall, since more student athletes will be given scholarships (instead of each athlete taking up 5 years, each will only take up four, freeing up an additional year to go to somebody else). The more athletes that get scholarships, the better for the health of the sport (more opportunities for HS wrestlers and more college graduates connected to D1 wrestling). 

 

The argument that they need a year to catch up with academics through a redshirt is outdated, since they can take the minimum 12 credit hours required to remain eligible in that first year and still graduate in 4 years through taking two 3 credit summer classes.  The athletes that are redshirting aren't missing any practices to go to study halls..

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having athletes compete for 5 years is very convenient for the coaches, but what about the athletes?  It needs to stop being the norm for athletes to move on with their lives in 5 years instead of 4.  They are losing a year of actual income, simply because they have no choice but to redshirt in order to be competitive with everyone else who redshirts.  They should have 4 years in college and compete 4 years.

It is also not good for the programs that sponsor wrestling. Having coaches that openly say they are taking a season off and not putting a good product on the mat is not a good way to build support for the sport at the school. It looks like a complete waste of resources to sponsor the sport. Additionally, it hurts the opponents who want to see good matches.

 

 

 

The argument that they need a year to catch up with academics through a redshirt is outdated, since they can take the minimum 12 credit hours required to remain eligible in that first year and still graduate in 4 years through taking two 3 credit summer classes.  The athletes that are redshirting aren't missing any practices to go to study halls..

I have found redshirts to miss more classes and have more time away from their studies. This is because they aren't able to compete at home like others do in dual meets and they are traveling a lot more for open tournaments throughout the season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting debate but I don't think this is all that important when you put it into perspective. I think there are a lot of other issues college athletes and wrestlers in particular face. The biggest of them is time and academics. Wrestling takes so much time that taking on challenging majors, adding a minor, or double majoring become impossible for most. Making honor rolls is also very difficult - let alone other extracurriculars or having a good social life. I would be interested to see how many wrestlers get into graduate programs or well-paying jobs after college; I would bet its pretty low. A lot of kids are also so focused on their sport and have so much practice and competition time that they always skip class, or can't study for a midterm because they are competing or just burnt out. Another factor is that many students can enter into colleges they otherwise would not be in and struggle with the coursework or take an easier major and end up with a degree that isn't that useful.  Of course, there are many exceptions to this. At least from my own inquiries, when I ask kids on D1 teams about academics many will admit to frequently skipping class due to being exhausted or uninterested in school (with their main focus in life being their sport), and they will admit to having poor grades, and many of the coaches not caring as long as they remained eligible. Another interesting thing would be to see how many kids quit or even leave school because they can't handle school and wrestling. Many people might say those kids just aren't dedicated enough and need to make more sacrifices, which may be true but I think the problem is much more foundational. I think looking into limiting practice time and season length, limiting easier admissions for poor students who are great athletes, and raising academic standards for eligibility before we talk about redshirting. Hell, many athletes only take the bare minimum in credits per semester (12) because doing any more would be impossible, and they need five years to graduate anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...