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2017 Zain Retherford vs 2008 Brent Metcalf

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Zain finished higher in last year's Olympic Trials than Metcalf did in 2008. Zain has also been unbeaten in folk since his true freshman year. Zain's results thru his three college wrestling years are superior to Metcalf's results and that is even when you consider Metcalf never even wrestled in college until his 3rd year of eligibility. If we started Zain's results in the 2015-2016 season thru today there is no legitimate comparison that does not place him above Metcalf. 

Edited by TBar1977

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2016-17 Zain Retherford never lost to Darrion Caldwell.

What wrestler has Retherford wrestled at 149 that is even remotely at Caldwell's level?  Collica? Sorenson? Mayes?  Those were his 3 best opponents by a significant margin(you could add Jordan if not for the fact they are a horrible mismatch due to Jordan's weakness on bottom).

 

 

I think it would be a great match.  No one really rode Metcalf until Palmer their Senior seasons.  Even when Caldwell beat him the 2nd time, the RT was more due to takedown attrition than any actual riding.  Still, I would expect Metcalf to have a very difficult time getting out from Retherford.  I could see Metcalf choosing neutral with a slight edge over Zain on his feet.  If Zain did get a takedown, Metcalf would have a very hard time coming back.

 

Honestly, if these guys wrestled 10 times I would not feel right predicting anything other than 5-5.

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2017 Dean Heil vs 1969 Dan Gable!  Go!

Heil in Triple OT. Takes 1st shot of the 10 minute match in third OT to get takedown at the buzzer. Heil successfully defends over 20 deep shot attempts by Gable! Heil named p4p all time champ.   

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2017 Dean Heil vs 1969 Dan Gable!  Go!

current match length/rules: Heil gets pinned 3 times in scrambles but ref doesn't call it. Heil wins 3-2.

in the room, no time limit: after 45 minutes Gable is up 70-3. Heil has a dislocated shoulder and mat burns on both sides of his face. Gable mercifully allows Heil to take a water break. Heil sneaks out the door, and never looks back.    

Edited by KTG119

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Great question - would love to see the match but Zain hasn't had enough quality competition to yield an answer. Looking at what's been accomplished by guys that Metcalf has beaten makes me want to vote Metcalf. The fact that Zain has dominated less quality competition, however, shouldn't be held against him.

 

I also don't put too much stock in the Caldwell matches. Style match-ups are such an important factor. Caldwell was a bad style match up for Metcalf, but Zain is nothing like Caldwell. As noted above, let's not forget that Metcalf consistently beat Borroughs and Molinaro and broke Jenkins in the NCAA finals (the same Jenkins who dominated and pinned Taylor).

 

In short, I don't know who wins, but I do know that T-bar's above response is way off base ("...there's no legitimate comparison that does not place him above Metcalf.").

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Great question - would love to see the match but Zain hasn't had enough quality competition to yield an answer. Looking at what's been accomplished by guys that Metcalf has beaten makes me want to vote Metcalf. The fact that Zain has dominated less quality competition, however, shouldn't be held against him.

 

I also don't put too much stock in the Caldwell matches. Style match-ups are such an important factor. Caldwell was a bad style match up for Metcalf, but Zain is nothing like Caldwell. As noted above, let's not forget that Metcalf consistently beat Borroughs and Molinaro and broke Jenkins in the NCAA finals (the same Jenkins who dominated and pinned Taylor).

 

In short, I don't know who wins, but I do know that T-bar's above response is way off base ("...there's no legitimate comparison that does not place him above Metcalf.").

 

 

You left out one part. I am comparing their careers starting in year 3 of eligibility, since that is where Metcalf's NCAA career began. Here is what it looks like so far:

 

Losses

Zain Retherford 0 (Agaian, starting year 3 and I am assuming Zain has no additional losses)

Brent Metcalf 3

 

Big10 Titles

Zain Retherford 3 (Again, I am assuming Zain wins out)

Brent Metcalf 2

 

NCAA Titles

Zain Retherford 3 (Again, I am assuming Zain wins out)

Brent Metcalf 2

 

Close Matches at NCAA's. Close is defined as non bonus wins

Zain Retherford 0 (I am assuming Zain just continues on with what he has been doing)

Brent Metcalf 7

 

This category really illustrates the difference between the two wrestlers. Metcalf won by DEC in the quarters thru the finals in 2008. He won by DEC in the semi finals and finals in both 2009 and 2010. Here is Zain's NCAA record: FALL, FALL, FALL, TF,  Major, TF, TF, TF, FALL, TF. He kills everyone. This isn't even close. 

 

Points scored at NCAA's

Metcalf scored 66 team points for Iowa in his 3 NCAA appearances.

Zain has 56.5 team points between his 3rd and 4th years. Assuming he just repeats the process he will end up with about 84-85 team points. Not close. 

 

Note: Zain already has 68.5 team points at NCAA's including his true freshman year, but he should far outpace that number when we take out his true freshman year and replace it with his final year to make the comparison apples to apples.  

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You left out one part. I am comparing their careers starting in year 3 of eligibility, since that is where Metcalf's NCAA career began. Here is what it looks like so far:

 

Losses

Zain Retherford 0 (Agaian, starting year 3 and I am assuming Zain has no additional losses)

Brent Metcalf 3

 

Big10 Titles

Zain Retherford 3 (Again, I am assuming Zain wins out)

Brent Metcalf 2

 

NCAA Titles

Zain Retherford 3 (Again, I am assuming Zain wins out)

Brent Metcalf 2

 

Close Matches at NCAA's. Close is defined as non bonus wins

Zain Retherford 0 (I am assuming Zain just continues on with what he has been doing)

Brent Metcalf 7

 

This category really illustrates the difference between the two wrestlers. Metcalf won by DEC in the quarters thru the finals in 2008. He won by DEC in the semi finals and finals in both 2009 and 2010. Here is Zain's NCAA record: FALL, FALL, FALL, TF,  Major, TF, TF, TF, FALL, TF. He kills everyone. This isn't even close. 

 

Points scored at NCAA's

Metcalf scored 66 team points for Iowa in his 3 NCAA appearances.

Zain has 56.5 team points between his 3rd and 4th years. Assuming he just repeats the process he will end up with about 84-85 team points. Not close. 

 

Note: Zain already has 68.5 team points at NCAA's including his true freshman year, but he should far outpace that number when we take out his true freshman year and replace it with his final year to make the comparison apples to apples.  

One thing you left out.  You are comparing their careers without comparing their competition.  Zain is dominating a field that simply cannot be argued as comparable to 149 during Brent's time.  Does that mean Retherford isn't as good?  No.  I even said they are a 50/50 tossup with each winning 5 out of 10.  But comparing records and bonus points isn't fair when you look at who they wrestled.  A couple of Metcalf's brackets have been argued as the best of ALL TIME.  Retherford's have been argued as the worst of that season.  Big difference.

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What wrestler has Retherford wrestled at 149 that is even remotely at Caldwell's level?  Collica? Sorenson? Mayes?  Those were his 3 best opponents by a significant margin(you could add Jordan if not for the fact they are a horrible mismatch due to Jordan's weakness on bottom).

 

Uh, Logan Stieber? You might have heard of him. Considering Darrion lost a lot of matches (even before his injuries) in his career, I'd say Stieber was a far superior wrestler than Darrion Caldwell. Just noticed you qualified it by limiting it to 149. Whatever. Anything to contort an argument, I guess. 

 

 

I think it would be a great match.  No one really rode Metcalf until Palmer their Senior seasons.  Even when Caldwell beat him the 2nd time, the RT was more due to takedown attrition than any actual riding.  Still, I would expect Metcalf to have a very difficult time getting out from Retherford.  I could see Metcalf choosing neutral with a slight edge over Zain on his feet.  If Zain did get a takedown, Metcalf would have a very hard time coming back.

 

Honestly, if these guys wrestled 10 times I would not feel right predicting anything other than 5-5.

 

 

But Palmer did ride him, and Zain has a far superior top game to Palmer's. Palmer wasn't even close to Zain on his feet or in any other position either. Palmer had 33 college losses, but in Palmer's senior year he was right there with Metcalf including even defeating him 9-3 at Big10's. So Matcalf was almost majored by a wrestler who himself had 33 losses. 

 

Metcalf wrestling Zain would be another step up from where Palmer was at that time. 

Edited by TBar1977

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You left out one part. I am comparing their careers starting in year 3 of eligibility, since that is where Metcalf's NCAA career began. Here is what it looks like so far:

 

Losses

Zain Retherford 0 (Agaian, starting year 3 and I am assuming Zain has no additional losses)

Brent Metcalf 3

 

Big10 Titles

Zain Retherford 3 (Again, I am assuming Zain wins out)

Brent Metcalf 2

 

NCAA Titles

Zain Retherford 3 (Again, I am assuming Zain wins out)

Brent Metcalf 2

 

Close Matches at NCAA's. Close is defined as non bonus wins

Zain Retherford 0 (I am assuming Zain just continues on with what he has been doing)

Brent Metcalf 7

 

This category really illustrates the difference between the two wrestlers. Metcalf won by DEC in the quarters thru the finals in 2008. He won by DEC in the semi finals and finals in both 2009 and 2010. Here is Zain's NCAA record: FALL, FALL, FALL, TF,  Major, TF, TF, TF, FALL, TF. He kills everyone. This isn't even close. 

 

Points scored at NCAA's

Metcalf scored 66 team points for Iowa in his 3 NCAA appearances.

Zain has 56.5 team points between his 3rd and 4th years. Assuming he just repeats the process he will end up with about 84-85 team points. Not close. 

 

Note: Zain already has 68.5 team points at NCAA's including his true freshman year, but he should far outpace that number when we take out his true freshman year and replace it with his final year to make the comparison apples to apples.  

 

This.... except for "close matches". Why? Dake. 

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1-2

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

When did Metcalf beat Caldwell in an official bout? I know of Caldwell WBF and the win in the NCAA final.

 

All star results do not count on their official records

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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When did Metcalf beat Caldwell in an official bout? I know of Caldwell WBF and the win in the NCAA final.

 

All star results do not count on their official records

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh nevermind then, I think Metcalf teched him in the all star dual

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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This.... except for "close matches". Why? Dake. 

 

 

I think when you look at dominance it tells you something. That is why they hand out the Hodge each year. And I know there are guys who win the close matches, which makes for a nice argument. Until proven otherwise, I will still take the more dominant guy in most fantasy matches. Dake proved he could beat Taylor, but Metcalf will never be able to prove he can beat Zain unless he comes out of retirement. 

 

Interestingly, Metcalf could have proven something at last year's Olympic Trials, but he bowed out early while Zain, still the college kid, finished 3rd against the seniors. Seniors including Metcalf and others better than Metcalf. 

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