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Truthteller

Thanks Willie Smalls and CP FRL

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Thanks for clowning the clown today on FRL by the name of 21 Blanks That was classic stuff!!!

 

21, the biggest douche bag that doesn't know anything about wrestling on the web. Acts like he's in the know but has no contacts. I really think he's under 15 years old or he's Amalone!

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21, the biggest douche bag that doesn't know anything about wrestling on the web. Acts like he's in the know but has no contacts. I really think he's under 15 years old or he's Amalone!

Amalone is one of the smartest wrestling guys I know.  Knows the sport, knows the game.  

 

Why all the hate?  

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Almost as dumb as anything that 21 has said on a forum is the fact that CP would even consider putting Zain above Snyder in the P4P rankings.  

 

If you were to put together an all time P4P ranking for NCAA wrestling, you'd have Uetake, John Smith, and Snyder in some order (the only three to wrestle in NCAA after proving to be the best in the world).  I'd put Snyder first.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Almost as dumb as anything that 21 has said on a forum is the fact that CP would even consider putting Zain above Snyder in the P4P rankings.

 

If you were to put together an all time P4P ranking for NCAA wrestling, you'd have Uetake, John Smith, and Snyder in some order (the only three to wrestle in NCAA after proving to be the best in the world). I'd put Snyder first.

Calm down Billy. All will be okay.

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Almost as dumb as anything that 21 has said on a forum is the fact that CP would even consider putting Zain above Snyder in the P4P rankings.  

 

If you were to put together an all time P4P ranking for NCAA wrestling, you'd have Uetake, John Smith, and Snyder in some order (the only three to wrestle in NCAA after proving to be the best in the world).  I'd put Snyder first.  

 

If I were to compile a list of the greatest NCAA wrestlers they'd be ranked on their achievements in NCAA wrestling, not in Freestyle wrestling. Even if Kyle wins an NCAA title next year he'd still be behind Pat Smith, Cael, Logan Stieber, and Dake. Stieber, btw, is a world freestyle champ in his own right.

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If I were to compile a list of the greatest NCAA wrestlers they'd be ranked on their achievements in NCAA wrestling, not in Freestyle wrestling. Even if Kyle wins an NCAA title next year he'd still be behind Pat Smith, Cael, Logan Stieber, and Dake. Stieber, btw, is a world freestyle champ in his own right.

A P4P list isn't a list of most accomplished wrestlers/wrestlers who had the greatest career. It's a more subjective test of who was better.  Although Cael had a better career than Smith, Uetake, and Snyder, P4P those three were the better wrestlers while in college (because they were world class).

 

I don't understand the argument that Logan Stieber or Zain Retherford are "P4P" better than Kyle Snyder.  It's nonsense.  Snyder is better..It's not as if he is just some great freestyle wrestler: his skills translate in both styles.  

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A P4P list isn't a list of most accomplished wrestlers/wrestlers who had the greatest career. It's a more subjective test of who was better.  Although Cael had a better career than Smith, Uetake, and Snyder, P4P those three were the better wrestlers while in college (because they were world class).

 

I don't understand the argument that Logan Stieber or Zain Retherford are "P4P" better than Kyle Snyder.  It's nonsense.  Snyder is better..It's not as if he is just some great freestyle wrestler: his skills translate in both styles.  

Something to consider...A very large number of great athletes that would be heavyweights play football or other sports. So the athletic talent pool Snyder is competing against is thinner than at the lower weights. Not saying Snyder isn't great, just something to think about when comparing different weight classes.

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Something to consider...A very large number of great athletes that would be heavyweights play football or other sports. So the athletic talent pool Snyder is competing against is thinner than at the lower weights. Not saying Snyder isn't great, just something to think about when comparing different weight classes.

Yes, but this doesn't apply to international competition. Kyle Snyder tech talked/ pinned his way through the toughest tournament in the whole world, so he's proven to beat the higher quality competition. What Kyle is doing in unprecedented on the collegiate level. When Kyle wins on the international level, he's taking on the very best. Although many fail to think in these terms, Kyle Snyder is not only the only World champion, but he (along with Cox) is really the only true national champion in college wrestling. Everyone else is winning weights at ncaas that have arbitrary age cut offs that exclude the best wrestlers in the country. Ex. Joseph is not "really" the 165 lb national champion, not when he hasn't won a bracket that includes Dake, Burroughs, Dieringer, Howe, etc. The weights at ncaas could be orders of magnitude tougher than they are now. Kyle is wrestling true national champions across the world, that are wrestling full-time, that are the highest caliber athletes, that possess the highest quality of wrestling technique in the world, and he's dominating most and winning the "big one" at the end of every season. That's why he was the only wrestler nominated for the Sullivan Award, the nation's most prestigious amateur athletic award. It wouldn't have made sense to nominate anyone else in college for this award, only Snyder.

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Yes, but this doesn't apply to international competition. Kyle Snyder tech talked/ pinned his way through the toughest tournament in the whole world, so he's proven to beat the higher quality competition. What Kyle is doing in unprecedented on the collegiate level. When Kyle wins on the international level, he's taking on the very best. Although many fail to think in these terms, Kyle Snyder is not only the only World champion, but he (along with Cox) is really the only true national champion in college wrestling. Everyone else is winning weights at ncaas that have arbitrary age cut offs that exclude the best wrestlers in the country. Ex. Joseph is not "really" the 165 lb national champion, not when he hasn't won a bracket that includes Dake, Burroughs, Dieringer, Howe, etc. The weights at ncaas could be orders of magnitude tougher than they are now. Kyle is wrestling true national champions across the world, that are wrestling full-time, that are the highest caliber athletes, that possess the highest quality of wrestling technique in the world, and he's dominating most and winning the "big one" at the end of every season. That's why he was the only wrestler nominated for the Sullivan Award, the nation's most prestigious amateur athletic award. It wouldn't have made sense to nominate anyone else in college for this award, only Snyder.

Their conversation was career NCAA P4P only, not international.

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Exactly, bigmik.  Snyder is on a different level.  He's not even wrestling his weightclass in the NCAA, since it doesn't exist.  He was the lightest guy to weigh in at HWT, but still dominated the field (with an injury in the semis/finals).  If that isn't the definition of P4P best (winning while injured/giving up so much weight), I don't know what is.  

 

Suggesting that Retherford is in the discussion of P4P #1 is ludicrous (unless Zain makes the team this summer and brings home a medal). As other have pointed out, he's not even the best for his age group, since that would be Pico.

 

 

Their conversation was career NCAA P4P only, not international.

 
P4P means who is the better wrestler, not who is statistically more accomplished over a career. 
Edited by Billyhoyle

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Exactly, bigmik.  Snyder is on a different level.  He's not even wrestling his weightclass in the NCAA, since it doesn't exist.  He was the lightest guy to weigh in at HWT, but still dominated the field (with an injury in the semis/finals).  If that isn't the definition of P4P best (winning while injured/giving up so much weight), I don't know what is.  

 

Suggesting that Retherford is in the discussion of P4P #1 is ludicrous (unless Zain makes the team this summer and brings home a medal). As other have pointed out, he's not even the best for his age group, since that would be Pico.

You're including international freestyle results in an NCAA folkstyle argument. I'm also not saying Snyder isn't #1, just gave something to ponder. Also, I believe Kasper weighed in lighter than Snyder.

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Their conversation was career NCAA P4P only, not international.

Even in NCAA wrestling, Kyle has the best credentials of returning collegiate wrestlers. If Kyle finishes next year undefeated, he'll have a better career than all graduating seniors, including Martinez, Zain, and Heil. 2,1,1,1 with 3 consecutive undefeated seasons. No red shirt.

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You're including international freestyle results in an NCAA folkstyle argument. I'm also not saying Snyder isn't #1, just gave something to ponder. Also, I believe Kasper weighed in lighter than Snyder.

Of course I'm including freestyle results. That's the adult level of competition in the sport of wrestling.  It's not as if Snyder is more of a natural freestyler than Retherford.  Zain was a cadet world champion, but has not improved nearly at the rate Kyle has (no shame in that).  

 

If Sadulaev were to start wrestling NCAA competition tomorrow, where would you put him in the P4P rankings after his first match?  I'd put him #1 or #2.  

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You're including international freestyle results in an NCAA folkstyle argument. I'm also not saying Snyder isn't #1, just gave something to ponder. Also, I believe Kasper weighed in lighter than Snyder.

Whether you like it or not, Those results hold weight in the minds of everyone who truly knows wrestling. Imagine if we had this same p4p conversation including HS wrestlers. Let's say in addition to having arguably the best results on the HS folkstyle level, the kid goes on to win a freestyle national championship bracket that included the top 20 or so NCAA D1 wrestlers, and that group of 20 contains D1 AAs and a national champions. Who would really argue to not include those results in any type of assessment because they fall outside of HS folkstyle wrestling?

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Of course I'm including freestyle results. That's the adult level of competition in the sport of wrestling.  It's not as if Snyder is more of a natural freestyler than Retherford.  Zain was a cadet world champion, but has not improved nearly at the rate Kyle has (no shame in that).  

 

If Sadulaev were to start wrestling NCAA competition tomorrow, where would you put him in the P4P rankings after his first match?  I'd put him #1 or #2.

 

This argument muddies the waters a little bit and adds another unnecessary obstacle to establishing the point of Snyder's greatness. In Snyder's case, he has already made it to the very top of NCAA wrestling already in addition to winning at the highest level. Unlike Sadulaev, there's no real reason to be skeptical about his skills in either style. With Sadulaev there is a legitimate reasonable doubt about how he would fair in a style he hasn't wrestled before. There is some doubt if he would go undefeated on his way to an NCAA title. The same isn't true to nearly the same extent with Snyder.

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Whether you like it or not, Those results hold weight in the minds of everyone who truly knows wrestling. Imagine if we had this same p4p conversation including HS wrestlers. Let's say in addition to having arguably the best results on the HS folkstyle level, the kid goes on to win a freestyle national championship bracket that included the top 20 or so NCAA D1 wrestlers, and that group of 20 contains D1 AAs and a national champions. Who would really argue to not include those results in any type of assessment because they fall outside of HS folkstyle wrestling?

Why aren't we capable of separating results? If I wanted to have a discussion about who the greatest NCAA folkstyle wrestler is, people will bring up a guy who never even wrestled in the NCAA (Pico). I don't get it. You can easily just compare NCAA resumes without considering freestyle. They aren't even the same rules. Kobe Bryant was a great basketball player but he wasn't a great college basketball player (he didn't play college basketball).

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Why aren't we capable of separating results? If I wanted to have a discussion about who the greatest NCAA folkstyle wrestler is, people will bring up a guy who never even wrestled in the NCAA (Pico). I don't get it. You can easily just compare NCAA resumes without considering freestyle. They aren't even the same rules. Kobe Bryant was a great basketball player but he wasn't a great college basketball player (he didn't play college basketball).

You're right that bringing up Pico in a discussion like this doesn't make much sense. Pico isn't comparable to Snyder. Snyder has proven himself in folk in a way that Pico hasn't. Bringing up his freestyle results in a supplementary fashion in a folkstyle discussion is reasonable. It's no different than when discussing the greatest HS folkstyle wrestlers ever, Kolat's performance at the Olympic trials is always brought up. It's a useful tool in demonstrating the level of wrestling he was able to achieve during his HS career.

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Here's another example:  When Kyle Snyder was going into his senior year of high school, there was a debate about who should be ranked P4P #1 in high school between him and Chance Marsteller (this was right before Snyder decided not to compete his senior year, so he was still being ranked).  

 

Some people argued that Marsteller should be ranked #1 due to being undefeated in PA and having "great" folkstyle wins on his resume.  I think some ranking services put him at the #1 spot.  People with a better understanding of the sport of wrestling, however, took into account the fact that Snyder was coming off of a junior world title at 96kg, an unprecedented (i think) feat for a first year junior U.S. athlete at an upper weight and saw him clearly as the #1 P4P wrestler.  The fact is that Snyder had proven himself at a level that Marsteller was unable to compete at. 

 

Similarly, Snyder can win internationally right now. While Retherford may soon prove that he can too, that is not yet the case.  

 

 

And with pico, my point was just that Retherford has not been the best wrestler in his age group for the U.S, although he is now that Pico has moved on to MMA. It had nothing to do with his accomplishments as a folkstyle wrestler.  I agree with the Kobe Bryant apology: that comparing Retherford to Pico is like comparing an NCAA basketball player to a professional that skipped HS...But when you compare Retherford to Snyder you have to also realize that Snyder is better than all of the professionals.  

 

If the coaches were polled about who the P4P #1 wrestler in the NCAA currently is, Snyder would win overwhelmingly. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Even in NCAA wrestling, Kyle has the best credentials of returning collegiate wrestlers. If Kyle finishes next year undefeated, he'll have a better career than all graduating seniors, including Martinez, Zain, and Heil. 2,1,1,1 with 3 consecutive undefeated seasons. No red shirt.

LOL

 

Career wins: Retherford 96, Snyder 58

 

Career losses: Retherford 3, Snyder 4

 

Career winning percentage: Retherford 97%, Snyder 93.5%

 

Career bonus rate: Retherford 71.7%, Snyder 64.5%

 

Career pins: Retherford 36, Snyder 6

 

Current undefeated streak: Retherford 64 matches, Snyder 28 matches

 

Career team points scored at NCAAs: Retherford 68.5, Snyder 66.5

 

Hodge trophies: Retherford 1, Snyder 0

Edited by PhiferFuqua

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LOL

Career wins: Retherford 96, Snyder 58

Career losses: Retherford 3, Snyder 4

Career winning percentage: Retherford 97%, Snyder 93.5%

Career bonus rate: Retherford 71.7%, Snyder 64.5%

Career pins: Retherford 36, Snyder 6

Current undefeated streak: Retherford 64 matches, Snyder 28 matches

Career team points scored at NCAAs: Retherford 68.5, Snyder 66.5

Hodge trophies: Retherford 1, Snyder 0

I don't know what you are "loling" about. 5,1,1,1 is not better than 2,1,1,1. Better NCAA performances and the same number of undefeated seasons. Also being a Sullivan Award finalist holds far more weight than a Hodge trophy. Snyder got Hodge votes and was a finalist, Zain wasn't even nominated for the most prestigious award in amateur athletics. And btw, Snyder has legitimate national championships on his resume ( in the truest sense of the word) while Zain does not. Furthermore, Snyder is the best at his weight period. No qualifiers needed. Zain is certainly very good and will be very high on an all time list of he wins out next year. With that said, Snyder will be even higher. If they both stop wrestling today, only Snyder is a first ballot HOF.

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I think it was absurd that FRL talked about 21guns.  If they want to call out a message board poster they should do it on a message board (and if one ever deserved to be called out, it's 21guns).  Or have him call in to FRL.  But it's pretty weak to take shots at a guy who can't respond.  I guess it's a slow news week.

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I don't think it's weak at all.  Most folks want to knock 21 guns head off but that is  impossible since he hides behind a keyboard. What  Willie and CP did was genius stuff  LOL

 

"Knock his head off". Why because he's an overly enthusiastic homer? I have no problem with 21 guns. If they had to call him out, they should have done so here where they have equal access to the same platform.

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