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bigmik

Is it time to get rid of the escape point?

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The escape point has never made much sense to me. If you get taken down, why should you earn a point for transitioning from a disadvantageous position to a neutral position? It seems to me that people want to save lesser neutral wrestlers from wrestlers that are great on their feet. The usual response I get to the suggestion of removing the escape point is something like: "What about mat wrestlers, this will leave them without a realistic chance to compete at a high level". This objection is confused. Mat specialists can get all the time they want on top by scoring their own takedowns. You know, The same way Dake, Retherford, Cox, etc. get their time on the mat. The escape point awarded following takedowns goes against a cardinal rule in wrestling: You get what you earn. You didn't earn an advantageous position; therefore, you should get no points. Getting an escape point after being taken down seems as ridiculous as being awarded a point after successfully bellying down and clearing the arms/wrists after being turned with a tilt. Your opponent gets two to four points, and you get one. I don't think anyone would be in favor of that.

 

Maybe in addition to eliminating the escape point, we could also get rid of the choice to go neutral between periods. Make each wrestler go top and bottom once. For the neutral challenged wrestlers, this is their chance to go to their bread and butter without having to go through the trouble of scoring their own takedown.

 

Thoughts? Should we get rid of the escape point? Why or why not?

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The escape is often given in scrambles (especially those that go out of bounds) when the top man loses advantage but the bottom man has not gained advantage over his opponent. The bottom man has fought for, and earned, a neutral position and gets awarded the escape point.

 

The escape point provides incentive to try to work out of the position. Without it, there would be an even greater need for the official to get involved and to call stalling when the bottom man isn't working.

 

 

I wouldn't get rid of it.

 

I am actually not a fan of making too many changes to the rules or the scoring as it makes the sport less relatable for people who were involved years prior.

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Folkstyle has had plenty of rule changes over the past two decades. Change in rules is not unique to freestyle.

 

Thus proving my point. Its been too long. Let the changes to freestyle. Rules/scoring aren't the problem. It's the wrestlers and their propensity to "game the system".

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The escape is often given in scrambles (especially those that go out of bounds) when the top man loses advantage but the bottom man has not gained advantage over his opponent. The bottom man has fought for, and earned, a neutral position and gets awarded the escape point.The escape point provides incentive to try to work out of the position. Without it, there would be an even greater need for the official to get involved and to call stalling when the bottom man isn't working.I wouldn't get rid of it.I am actually not a fan of making too many changes to the rules or the scoring as it makes the sport less relatable for people who were involved years prior.

Eliminating the escape point will not get rid of the concept of escaping from your opponents control. Fans of yesteryear wouldn't be lost by simply not putting a "1" on the scoreboard after a wrestler gets to his feet after being taken down.

 

Yes, you have to "earn" your way to your feet after being taken down. The point is, you have simply improved your position to a neutral one. You didn't ever gain an advantage. Your opponent is the one who gained an advantage by scoring the takedown.

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should be worth .5 points.

 

Interesting. For some reason, people tend to struggle with point systems that don't deal exclusively in wholes. With that said, .5 points for an escape is better than we have now.

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Eliminating the escape point will not get rid of the concept of escaping from your opponents control.

Yes, it will. Work for the stalemate or wait for the top man to get loose before taking a risk to get away. The bottom man takes on risk while trying to get away. The most falls I see come from guys on bottom trying to escape and getting caught.

 

 

Fans of yesteryear wouldn't be lost by simply not putting a "1" on the scoreboard after a wrestler gets to his feet after being taken down.

Fans of yesteryear are lost all the time due to changes to the scoring which make it so that they are not knowledgeable of the sport any longer which makes it hard to be a casual fan.

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Getting away from someone who was controlling you sounds like an advantage to me. Worthy of 1 point.

How is it an advantage? Preventing someone from dominating you further is not an advantage. Just like how recovering from a flurry of punches against the ropes, to the middle of the ring, is not an advantage.

 

Would you also be in favor of awarding an escape point after bellying out/clearing arms and wrists after a four point turn? After all, you escaped a dangerous position and went to the standard defensive position.

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Yes, it will. Work for the stalemate or wait for the top man to get loose before taking a risk to get away. The bottom man takes on risk while trying to get away. The most falls I see come from guys on bottom trying to escape and getting caught.Fans of yesteryear are lost all the time due to changes to the scoring which make it so that they are not knowledgeable of the sport any longer which makes it hard to be a casual fan.

No, it will not get rid of the escape. Kids will attempt to escape so they can score points on their own. You should keep your objections realistic. Guys used to try to escape in freestyle, and the likely consequences for doing so were much more severe than folk.

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I say 1 point for an escape and 3 points for a takedown.

I used to have the same opinion.  But after thinking about it, I don't think the answer for an overvalued escape is not to overvalue a takedown.  We just need to devalue the escape. 

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Being on bottom could be considered an advantage too. Bo Nickal.

You can go to bottom as much as you like, but you will be giving up points. Gene Mills used to take the risk of intentionally going to bottom in order to get a reversal.

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a .5 escape also increases the value of a reversal.  A reversal without a rideout is only worth an escape + riding time.   Some people hate the riding time point.  You could get rid of it with a .5 escape. 

Edited by LemonPie

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I used to have the same opinion.  But after thinking about it, I don't think the answer for an overvalued escape is not to overvalue a takedown.  We just need to devalue the escape.

 

I think your suggestion of devaluing an escape is probably far more likely to ever happen than getting rid of the escape point completely. Although I lean strongly towards getting rid of the escape point, I think devaluing the point is a step in the right direction. It may end up being a better solution overall.

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