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bigmik

Is it time to get rid of the escape point?

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"Second of all the whole idea of getting rid of the escape point is totally inline with how freestyle is done, so while you don't come out and directly say let's change folk to free, you certainly imply it. You can back pedal all you want but its pretty obvious what you're getting at"

 

The meaning of this quote is clear, in context. Do you have the integrity to acknowledge what you meant by this post at the time it was posted?

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"Second of all the whole idea of getting rid of the escape point is totally inline with how freestyle is done, so while you don't come out and directly say let's change folk to free, you certainly imply it. You can back pedal all you want but its pretty obvious what you're getting at"

 

The meaning of this quote is clear, in context. Do you have the integrity to acknowledge what you meant by this post at the time it was posted?

 

Absolutely.

What I meant by this post was that you are suggesting a rule change that would make Folkstyle more similar to Freestyle. By wanting this rule change you want Folkstyle to be more like Freestyle. You then denied that you have no desire to make Folkstyle more to be like Freestyle. How do you ask for a rule change that makes the one style more like another style, then say I have no desire to make the styles more similar?

 

Do you have the integrity to acknowledge the FACT that I've been trying to keep this thread on the topic and hand by offering suggestions as to why escapes are worth 1 point while it is YOU who are in fact trying to deviate from that topic by making this a personal argument between you and me because I called you out on your desire to implement a rule change that would make Folkstyle more like Freestyle?

 

Now for about the 10th time. How do you address the scenarios I drafted out several times regarding 1 point escapes?

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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I don't really understand this. Escape point makes sense to me IMO. 

 

Yeah, you reward someone for improving to a neutral position - they were just being controlled.

You are awarded 2 points for taking control of our opponent - Take down, reversal. You can improve on those two points via nearfall.

If you are being controlled and you escape that control you are given 1 point, which is half of the value given for taking control.  

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Absolutely.

What I meant by this post was that you are suggesting a rule change that would make Folkstyle more similar to Freestyle. By wanting this rule change you want Folkstyle to be more like Freestyle. You then denied that you have no desire to make Folkstyle more to be like Freestyle. How do you ask for a rule change that makes the one style more like another style, then say I have no desire to make the styles more similar?

 

"Correct. I refuse to own up to things I didn't do. IMO I didn't falsely accuse you, I believe that is your alterior motive there for its an accurate accusation. You can deny it. That's your right. Doesn't mean I have to believe you."

 

Exactly where did you make an accurate accusation about my ulterior motive?

Edited by bigmik

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"Correct. I refuse to own up to things I didn't do. IMO I didn't falsely accuse you, I believe that is your alterior motive there for its an accurate accusation. You can deny it. That's your right. Doesn't mean I have to believe you."

 

Exactly where did you make an accurate accusation about my ulterior motive?

 

You have a desire to eliminate 1 point escapes. This will make folkstyle more like freestyle. Therefore your ulterior motive is to make folkstyle more like freestyle.

This is what I accused you of. This is what you want. This is why my accusation is an accurate one. 

 

Now for about the 11th time. How do you address the scenarios I drafted out several times regarding 1 point escapes?

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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You have a desire to eliminate 1 point escapes. This will make folkstyle more like freestyle. Therefore your ulterior motive is to make folkstyle more like freestyle.

This is what I accused you of. This is what you want. This is why my accusation is an accurate one. 

 

Now for about the 11th time. How do you address the scenarios I drafted out several times regarding 1 point escapes?

Ulterior motive means hidden motive. What is my hidden motive?

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After reading 6 pages of posts, I am now firmly convinced that the escape point should be increased to 2 points.  Not only is it better to disagree with bigmik, you should do it by a factor of 2!!

Edited by MSU158

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After reading 6 pages of posts, I am now firmly convinced that the escape point should be increased to 2 points.  Not only is it better to disagree with bigmik, you should do it by a factor of 2!!

Move along MSU158.

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Ulterior motive means hidden motive. What is my hidden motive?

Your hidden motive is clearly written out in post #106 - "Therefore your ulterior motive is to make folkstyle more like freestyle."

 

Welcome aboard MSU158! Good to see you around these parts of town!

 

Now for about the 12th time. How do you address the scenarios I drafted out several times regarding 1 point escapes?

 

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Wow... this went WAY off on a tangent... can we come back to topic?

 

A poster asked about the "let up rule".  I was thinking that when the top rider is in a position of dominance (clear ride control), he could "motion" to the ref that he's allowing the "let up" to occur, thus returning both wrestlers to their feet.  Think about how Zain rides, and basically sits on top, looks at the ref, and then goes for his arm bar or some tilt.  His hands are free at that time, the bottom guy is flattened out, and he would have plenty of time to perform said "motion".  

 

This way, there is clear differentiation between an actual "escape" performed by the bottom guy, vs. a "let up" made by the top guy (through the motion).  Think optional start, or something along those lines.  Now... i have zero reffing experience, an am curious as to what the refs may think, and how it may impact match flow.

 

Again, just an idea...

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Wow... this went WAY off on a tangent... can we come back to topic?

 

A poster asked about the "let up rule".  I was thinking that when the top rider is in a position of dominance (clear ride control), he could "motion" to the ref that he's allowing the "let up" to occur, thus returning both wrestlers to their feet.  Think about how Zain rides, and basically sits on top, looks at the ref, and then goes for his arm bar or some tilt.  His hands are free at that time, the bottom guy is flattened out, and he would have plenty of time to perform said "motion".  

 

This way, there is clear differentiation between an actual "escape" performed by the bottom guy, vs. a "let up" made by the top guy (through the motion).  Think optional start, or something along those lines.  Now... i have zero reffing experience, an am curious as to what the refs may think, and how it may impact match flow.

 

Again, just an idea...

 

 

I understand what your saying totally, however how do you differentiate between a person saying.. hey I'm capable of dominating this person on top but I'm letting him up vs I'm completely in control right now at the moment but I dont think I can keep this up much longer.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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I understand what your saying totally, however how do you differentiate between a person saying.. hey I'm capable of dominating this person on top but I'm letting him up vs I'm completely in control right now at the moment but I dont think I can keep this up much longer.

 

 

Fair enough.

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unless we adopt some (ahem... sssshhh) freestyle rules.  Maybe a blend?  I.e.  Once a TD is awarded, the top man has 15 seconds to turn/bottom guy has 15 seconds to escape.  If no turn, return to feet with no escape point awarded.  If escape occurs in that time period, 1pt awarded to escapee?  

 

EDIT:  Rider is incentivized to ride to keep the opponent from getting the point.  In addition, all riding time still accumulates.  Maybe we also augment that for every 30 seconds of RT, there is a point awarded.  So, 2 TD's and 30 seconds of RT makes the score 5-0.  

Edited by treep2000

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unless we adopt some (ahem... sssshhh) freestyle rules.  Maybe a blend?  I.e.  Once a TD is awarded, the top man has 15 seconds to turn/bottom guy has 15 seconds to escape.  If no turn, return to feet with no escape point awarded.  If escape occurs in that time period, 1pt awarded to escapee?  

 

EDIT:  Rider is incentivized to ride to keep the opponent from getting the point.  In addition, all riding time still accumulates.  Maybe we also augment that for every 30 seconds of RT, there is a point awarded.  So, 2 TD's and 30 seconds of RT makes the score 5-0.  

 

Which basically turns Folkstyle into Freestyle! I am completely and totally 100% against this.

 

Also according to bigmik that still doesn't explain WHY an escape is worth 1 point.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Your hidden motive is clearly written out in post #106 - "Therefore your ulterior motive is to make folkstyle more like freestyle."

 

Welcome aboard MSU158! Good to see you around these parts of town!

 

Now for about the 12th time. How do you address the scenarios I drafted out several times regarding 1 point escapes?

So, I'm hiding the fact that I really want to change completely to freestyle? That is what you believe?

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So, I'm hiding the fact that I really want to change completely to freestyle? That is what you believe?

And note that this "more similar" phraseology is what you are saying now, after the fact. You originally said that I wanted to change folk into freestyle. Not simply make it more similar

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The only way you can objectively let someone up, is from a referee's position restart.

 

Even then not really! If I were to wrestle David Taylor and we started the 2nd period (not that I could ever make it that far against him) and he chose down, theres no way in hell I'm holding him down. So for me to not give up a point by choosing the let him up is silly IMO.

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And note that this "more similar" phraseology is what you are saying now, after the fact. You originally said that I wanted to change folk into freestyle. Not simply make it more similar

 

Yup. Exactly this. You want to change Folkstyle into freestyle and you want to do it gradually piece by piece, but by bit.

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Serious questions to help me better frame the context of my responses:

* Is there a "harm" in adopting some of the Freestyle Elements into Folkstyle?

* Why is there such a push to "conserve" the current manifestation of Folkstyle?

 

I do believe, in my dark, sadistic, and twisted soul, that the concept of an escape, can be broken down into two types:

* Allowed escape (should be worth nothing)

* Unallowed escape (should be worth something)

 

If this means that we edge closer to freestyle rules, I'm personally OK with that.  Afterall, our current installment of Folkstyle looks much different than what it did 10, 20, 30, 40+ years ago.  I'm not saying I have all the answers, but am agreeing that the concept of the "escape" needs some attention, especially when the sheer dominance exerted by our younger wrestlers that are perfecting their stand up game is proving to be a winning formula, and by a LARGE margin.  (i.e. Snyder, Nolf, etc.).   

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