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bigmik

Is it time to get rid of the escape point?

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I should be more accurate. I think a release should award the bottom guy nothing, but if the bottom guy earns the escape I think this should be rewarded. This said, this could be very difficult to Rule.

 

So how do you objectively differentiate between the 2? How do you differentiate the difference between top guy who is unable to hold the buttom guy down vs the top guy who is just letting the bottom guy up. You simply can't.

 

There would be a huge domino effect if the 1 point escape was eliminated. It now virtually eliminates choosing bottom.

 

The ONLY reason now to choose bottom is to go for a reversal, which has now been negated because if a top man gets in trouble, all he has to is release the bottom man to neutral and is now safe.

 

If Wrestler A chooses bottom, he essentially gives wrestler B the choice of going neutral or top.

 

Wrestling would see a lot less mat wrestling, thus seeing a lot less nearfall points, unless it came from throws to the back. You would see less of of these, because if you make a mistake in a thrown or takedown, it is now more difficult to recover from due to no longer getting a point from escaping.

 

The sport would essentially go to being takedowns and takedowns ONLY, ah la beach wrestling. Yuck.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Contrary to eliminating the riding time point, I think it should be expanded. 1 point for every minute riding time. Emphasizes the best part of wrestling: control on the mat.

Love this idea. Guy on top rides his opponent for 3 min riding time, he should get 3 points!

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should be worth .5 points.

This, or a 3 point taken down. The escape is way overvalued compared to a takedown; anyone who two escapes is not the same as a takedown.

 

1 point escapes and 3 point takedowns reduces the chance that the person who gets the most takedowns loses.

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BigTenFanboy, I like the scenarios you posit. I was already on the side that escapes should be worth a point, but I was willing to listen to possible benefits from the idea of eliminating that point. It seems like everything you said would deter mat wrestling. My favorite type of wrestling to watch is mat wrestling. It would absolutely stop people from choosing bottom. At first I thought, "well, maybe not because they may just work for a reversal", but, as you said, at the first sign of trouble the top wrestler will just release the bottom wrestler with no consequence. Then, i was agreeing that maybe an intentional release not being worth points could work if it was from a break in the action. You again made a wonderful point of how that would eliminate flurries at the end of periods to get an escape to tie or win a match along with a wrestler knowing he wouldnt be able to hold down his opponent basically forcing the wrestler to choose neutral without getting anything for it. I know I didn't add anything of value to this conversation. I'm just impressed with your ability to pick specific reasons why ideas are dumb. 

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Top wrestler is supposedly working on a pinning combination. Escaping gets a point. Reality is many on top stall and do anything but work on pinning. Takedown and release - without any intention of pushing for a pin. Make them wrestle the entire match if they can't get the Fall. Still a tech/superior decision of some sort but - no pin, no short match.

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Top wrestler is supposedly working on a pinning combination. Escaping gets a point. Reality is many on top stall and do anything but work on pinning. Takedown and release - without any intention of pushing for a pin. Make them wrestle the entire match if they can't get the Fall. Still a tech/superior decision of some sort but - no pin, no short match.

Many wrestlers try to turn their opponents while on top but are simply not able to which in turn looks like they're stalling. I like the fact that college wrestling has gone to 4 points for a 4 count rewarding the top wrestler for making the turns. I disagree with getting rid of pins. Its the knockout punch that gives everyone a chance as well as a display of dominance in the sport. Its also what makes dual meets exciting.

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BigTenFanboy, I like the scenarios you posit. I was already on the side that escapes should be worth a point, but I was willing to listen to possible benefits from the idea of eliminating that point. It seems like everything you said would deter mat wrestling. My favorite type of wrestling to watch is mat wrestling. It would absolutely stop people from choosing bottom. At first I thought, "well, maybe not because they may just work for a reversal", but, as you said, at the first sign of trouble the top wrestler will just release the bottom wrestler with no consequence. Then, i was agreeing that maybe an intentional release not being worth points could work if it was from a break in the action. You again made a wonderful point of how that would eliminate flurries at the end of periods to get an escape to tie or win a match along with a wrestler knowing he wouldnt be able to hold down his opponent basically forcing the wrestler to choose neutral without getting anything for it. I know I didn't add anything of value to this conversation. I'm just impressed with your ability to pick specific reasons why ideas are dumb.

 

Thank you. Another thing you would start to see is a big increase in bottom wrestlers doing nothing on bottom. There is now no incentive for them to attempt to wrestle up and out from bottom. The only thing trying to get out from bottom would do is open them up for being turned. Why would they even bother? All they they would do is more aggressively block being turned which would in turn make the top man look like he's stalling even more!

 

The entire dynamic of folkstyle wrestling would change and the only back points you would see would be from throwns... which would in turn make the style look an awful lot like an international style known as freestyle. The biggest difference you would see is that the top man now chooses when you go back to neutral, not the ref.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Interesting. For some reason, people tend to struggle with point systems that don't deal exclusively in wholes.

That's because they're annoying, and require new equipment.  If you want a finer-grained scoring system, start by multiplying all current values by some whole number (greater than one... just to be clear).

Edited by Ray_Brinzer

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Yes, but what percent of the time is the bottom guy just released?  Guy didn't do squat. 

 

The whole idea behind the release is that you are giving up control because you don't think you are good enough to get a pin.  So it isn't fair to say that somebody "didn't do squat" in that situation.  They've convinced their opponent that they won't be turned and that beating them would require a different strategy.

 

It's like in football - if you are winning by less than a field goal with a minute left and your opponent has a first down on the ten yard line... then sometimes the best thing you can do is lie down and let them stroll in to the end zone so that you can get the ball back with time to score. Those types of strategies are just more common in wrestling.

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Many wrestlers try to turn their opponents while on top but are simply not able to which in turn looks like they're stalling. I like the fact that college wrestling has gone to 4 points for a 4 count rewarding the top wrestler for making the turns. I disagree with getting rid of pins. Its the knockout punch that gives everyone a chance as well as a display of dominance in the sport. Its also what makes dual meets exciting.

 

I'm halfway with you on that - the problem is that unless you're really good, or you catch your opponent in something, then getting them on their back usually requires exposing yourself to some risk, either from an escape or from a reversal, because you have to move out from being parallel behind their legs. And most wrestlers currently don't want to do that. Refs encourage that by rarely looking at stalling for the top guy unless it is egregious.  So guys are content to hold their opponent down and beat on him to tire him out for as long as they can in the hopes of something easy opening up.  If refs spent as much time looking for parallel rides as they did for the bottom guy having his head on the mat the problem would fix itself.

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I really dislike the 4 point near fall.  There is no way that that is worth two takedowns.  Add the fact that the refs count way way too fast, and they can't tell what 45 degrees is, and we move towards freestyle with four points for a turn.    Not my call though. 

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The escape point has never made much sense to me. If you get taken down, why should you earn a point for transitioning from a disadvantageous position to a neutral position? It seems to me that people want to save lesser neutral wrestlers from wrestlers that are great on their feet. The usual response I get to the suggestion of removing the escape point is something like: "What about mat wrestlers, this will leave them without a realistic chance to compete at a high level". This objection is confused. Mat specialists can get all the time they want on top by scoring their own takedowns. You know, The same way Dake, Retherford, Cox, etc. get their time on the mat. The escape point awarded following takedowns goes against a cardinal rule in wrestling: You get what you earn. You didn't earn an advantageous position; therefore, you should get no points. Getting an escape point after being taken down seems as ridiculous as being awarded a point after successfully bellying down and clearing the arms/wrists after being turned with a tilt. Your opponent gets two to four points, and you get one. I don't think anyone would be in favor of that.

 

Maybe in addition to eliminating the escape point, we could also get rid of the choice to go neutral between periods. Make each wrestler go top and bottom once. For the neutral challenged wrestlers, this is their chance to go to their bread and butter without having to go through the trouble of scoring their own takedown.

 

Thoughts? Should we get rid of the escape point? Why or why not?

yeah let's get rid of ANY reason to TRY and get out from bottom.........sheesh

I have an idea......... let's teach wrestlers to be good from EVERY position... it's just a thought.

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I really dislike the 4 point near fall.  There is no way that that is worth two takedowns.  Add the fact that the refs count way way too fast, and they can't tell what 45 degrees is, and we move towards freestyle with four points for a turn.    Not my call though. 

I'm of the school of thought that says changing the point system doesn't motivate better wrestling; it just gives one man a bigger lead faster resulting in more TFs sooner, but not more pins. Pins are a function of knowhow, showmanship and guts, not so much the point system.

 

If wrestling is going to ever become mainstream, the point system will have to be largely scrapped and stripped of all the nuances of minor scoring and bothersome details to make it fan friendly. Fans don't want timid mosquito bites; they want gutsy home run swings for the bleachers. 

 

We should adopt "throw wrestling" where you only score from the feet to the back, or get a takedown without backs only if a pin attempt was part of the throw. Three ways to score: 1) a TD to a pin; or 2) a TD right to backs;  3) a TD immediately to a tilt/ pin combination  but unsuccessful ( weak half nelsons = no TD points). After the ref signals the points, clock is stopped and both men are stood back up. One round, 7 minutes.

 

Of course this idea won't ever see the light of day, but I'm sure it would force wrestlers to rethink their ability and adopt/adapt changes for the good of the whole sport rather than status quo riding time boredom, TD-escape repetition, official replay time outs i.e., the selfish interests of a traditional few.  BTW, stalling on the feet is easier to detect and more likely to occur due to having to burn more oxygen using larger leg muscles for continual support. As a result DQs / pins would also be more likely since fatigue produces both.

 

The whole question is would coaches/wrestlers adapt. I think so, if it means helping the whole sport. And the literature on how to throw and pin is vast. This also eliminates the lengthy "on the mat" groveling aspect which is an eyesore no other sport suffers.

Edited by Cooch1

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I'm of the school of thought that says changing the point system doesn't motivate better wrestling; it just gives one man a bigger lead faster resulting in more TFs sooner, but not more pins. Pins are a function of knowhow, showmanship and guts, not so much the point system.

 

If wrestling is going to ever become mainstream, the point system will have to be largely scrapped and stripped of all the nuances of minor scoring and bothersome details to make it fan friendly. Fans don't want timid mosquito bites; they want gutsy home run swings for the bleachers.

 

We should adopt "throw wrestling" where you only score from the feet to the back, or get a takedown without backs only if a pin attempt was part of the throw. Three ways to score: 1) a TD to a pin; or 2) a TD right to backs; 3) a TD immediately to a tilt/ pin combination but unsuccessful ( weak half nelsons = no TD points). After the ref signals the points, clock is stopped and both men are stood back up. One round, 7 minutes.

 

Of course this idea won't ever see the light of day, but I'm sure it would force wrestlers to rethink their ability and adopt/adapt changes for the good of the whole sport rather than status quo riding time boredom, TD-escape repetition, official replay time outs i.e., the selfish interests of a traditional few. BTW, stalling on the feet is easier to detect and more likely to occur due to having to burn more oxygen using larger leg muscles for continual support. As a result DQs / pins would also be more likely since fatigue produces both.

 

The whole question is would coaches/wrestlers adapt. I think so, if it means helping the whole sport. And the literature on how to throw and pin is vast. This also eliminates the lengthy "on the mat" groveling aspect which is an eyesore no other sport suffers.

What you suggest sounds very similar to freestyle with a few tweaks. Edited by BigTenFanboy

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