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bigmik

Is it time to get rid of the escape point?

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I'm of the school of thought that says changing the point system doesn't motivate better wrestling; it just gives one man a bigger lead faster resulting in more TFs sooner, but not more pins. Pins are a function of knowhow, showmanship and guts, not so much the point system.

 

If wrestling is going to ever become mainstream, the point system will have to be largely scrapped and stripped of all the nuances of minor scoring and bothersome details to make it fan friendly. Fans don't want timid mosquito bites; they want gutsy home run swings for the bleachers. 

 

We should adopt "throw wrestling" where you only score from the feet to the back, or get a takedown without backs only if a pin attempt was part of the throw. Three ways to score: 1) a TD to a pin; or 2) a TD right to backs;  3) a TD immediately to a tilt/ pin combination  but unsuccessful ( weak half nelsons = no TD points). After the ref signals the points, clock is stopped and both men are stood back up. One round, 7 minutes.

 

Of course this idea won't ever see the light of day, but I'm sure it would force wrestlers to rethink their ability and adopt/adapt changes for the good of the whole sport rather than status quo riding time boredom, TD-escape repetition, official replay time outs i.e., the selfish interests of a traditional few.  BTW, stalling on the feet is easier to detect and more likely to occur due to having to burn more oxygen using larger leg muscles for continual support. As a result DQs / pins would also be more likely since fatigue produces both.

 

The whole question is would coaches/wrestlers adapt. I think so, if it means helping the whole sport. And the literature on how to throw and pin is vast. This also eliminates the lengthy "on the mat" groveling aspect which is an eyesore no other sport suffers.

 

So... Greco?

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So... Greco?

All styles become integrated. Most importantly i suggest the takedown and pinning attempt are sewn together while all else is meaningless. Amateur wrestling has to be directed toward the pin or it remains in a status quo condition of mediocrity divorced from pinning attempts as its primary goal. Boxers try for a KO, not a glance or half hearted attack. Baseball = home plate, football= goal line.

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 to encourage more mat wrestling!

 

 

 

I reference the post (above by Cooch Aug 27) in which he offers 3 ways to score that would be exciting to the layman, who wants to see/learn more about quality wrestling.

 

Some added thoughts to improve our sport:

Riding out your opponent. Dancing around on our feet that results in zero takedowns/points. RE takedowns, here is one aspect that tends to get stale? The dive that can

last too long and create boredom. Even among those who have been around our sport for awhile. That dive has to go. Now, takedowns to the back can be extremely exciting

for both the novice fan and the veteran fan. It just does not happen often enough. The ultimate goal of our sport is to pin. As the professor says B Ps. Bonus points win

tourneys and duals.

Edited by denny

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All styles become integrated. Most importantly i suggest the takedown and pinning attempt are sewn together while all else is meaningless. Amateur wrestling has to be directed toward the pin or it remains in a status quo condition of mediocrity divorced from pinning attempts as its primary goal. Boxers try for a KO, not a glance or half hearted attack. Baseball = home plate, football= goal line.

Boxing and Football have other ways of scoring/winning. There are many boxing matches that goes to judges decision as well as football games that are won by field goals.

 

Have you ever watched korean style wrestling? It's called Ssireum and pretty much implores a similar system that you suggest. While it's fun to watch, it has more of a novelty feel than that of an actual competitive sport. The system you suggest would be an entirely different style of wrestling that I disagree with you're thinking would catch on. While i agree with you that high amplitude throws would certainly increase the fun factor from an outside observer I think you'll end up with a lot of matches that end up in ties, just like the orginal UFC RULES where matches could be 30 min long with the only way to win being via knockout or submission.

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I reference the post (above by Cooch Aug 27) in which he offers 3 ways to score that would be exciting to the layman, who wants to see/learn more about quality wrestling.

 

Riding out your opponent. Dancing around on our feet that results in zero takedowns/points. RE takedowns, here is one aspect that tends to get stale? The dive that can

last too long and create boredom. Even among those who have been around our sport for awhile. That dive has to go. Now, takedowns to the back can be extremely exciting

for both the novice fan and the veteran fan. It just does not happen often enough. The ultimate goal of our sport is to pin. As the professor says B Ps. Bonus points win

tourneys and duals.

It happens very often, it's just when 1 wrestler is significantly better than the other, which in my opinion ends up actually being even more boring that close tight fought matches. Edited by BigTenFanboy

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It happens very often, it's just when 1 wrestler is significantly better than the other, which in my opinion ends up actually being even more boring that close tight fought matches.

 

At least tight matches between evenly matched guys have some tension even if there is no action.  Watching a guy get dismantled (outside of it happening in the finals or something like that) just isn't fun for anybody.

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At least tight matches between evenly matched guys have some tension even if there is no action.  Watching a guy get dismantled (outside of it happening in the finals or something like that) just isn't fun for anybody.

 

 

Unless.......of course IT IS

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At least tight matches between evenly matched guys have some tension even if there is no action.  Watching a guy get dismantled (outside of it happening in the finals or something like that) just isn't fun for anybody.

 

Agreed! A big part of what makes wrestling fun to watch is knowing the story behind the wrestlers. Ever watch two very weak novice wrestlers go at it? Usually its an eye sore. Now watch that same match during a high school dual meet with the league title is on the line. Suddenly the horrible technique and weak athletic ability is meaningless and becomes the most exciting match of the entire dual! At the top levels wrestlers dont make as many sloppy mistakes (giving their opponents scoring opportunities) due to being so highly trained and are such strong athletes. I dont consider the low scoring or inability to turn the bottom man due to stalling. I attribute it to wrestlers being so well trained to not be turned.

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Boxing and Football have other ways of scoring/winning. There are many boxing matches that goes to judges decision as well as football games that are won by field goals.

 

Have you ever watched korean style wrestling? It's called Ssireum and pretty much implores a similar system that you suggest. While it's fun to watch, it has more of a novelty feel than that of an actual competitive sport. The system you suggest would be an entirely different style of wrestling that I disagree with you're thinking would catch on. While i agree with you that high amplitude throws would certainly increase the fun factor from an outside observer I think you'll end up with a lot of matches that end up in ties, just like the orginal UFC RULES where matches could be 30 min long with the only way to win being via knockout or submission.

yes Boxing and Football have other ways of scoring, but the goal is always in mind. Wrestling is highly distracted, e.g. Snyder. And I did say my idea wouldn't see the light of day for the very reason you mention. Thus we're stuck with what we've got. Tweaks be damned, we are stuck with a few big duals and the NCAA tournament to look forward to; everything else listen for the pin to drop.. 

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yes Boxing and Football have other ways of scoring, but the goal is always in mind. Wrestling is highly distracted, e.g. Snyder. And I did say my idea wouldn't see the light of day for the very reason you mention. Thus we're stuck with what we've got. Tweaks be damned, we are stuck with a few big duals and the NCAA tournament to look forward to; everything else listen for the pin to drop.. 

 

Hi, Cooch1, I posted this before I think, we met briefly back in 1987 in Greenbelt, Md.  My employer sent me there for work conference, fortunately the same week as NCAA's, so I got paid to make the trip.  At my hotel, soome ISU vets & fans were hanging out drinking beers between sessions (after work for me), and while they were proud of their old teammate Dan, they didn't want to see him do as well that weekend.

 

I think your comments about boxing and wrestling went over a few people's heads.  Ideally, the end result of every boxing match would be a knockout; every wrestling match would end with a pin.  Now even in the old days of fights going 40 rounds or so, people got tired of waiting for one guy to just fall over from exhaustion, so they devised point systems, as did wrestling.  It is still a lesser result, though, as you pointed out.  My first year in wrestling, we had an assistant coach who went to the NCAA's twice in the 50's, refereed a lot of matches (outside our district).  He was very explicit; if you are not working for a pin, you're stalling.  He would see a guy on bottom sneak a look at the clock, 25 seconds left in the period, I'll turtle up; he would holler, keep working, and hit guys with cautions very late in the period. Same with top guy thinking, I can't turn this guy, let's just start again next period - "caution on top man".  Coaches hated it, but he was consistent with it.  If you're not working for the pin, whatever your position, you're stalling, and he had a low threshold for calling cautions.

 

I think us dinosaurs have to accept, though, that it's a different sport now, literally.  A few years after I graduated from college (1983), they instituted the tech fall, which I thought was a bad move.  The only way a match should end early is if someone gets pinned.  Hey, it's rare, but sometimes the guy in the lead gets sloppy and gets stuck...  And then the first time I saw a tilt, I'm thinking, why did they give him points?  That wasn't a near fall, the offensive guy had his own body under the near shoulder, couldn't possibly pin him.  No, it's not near fall points, it's back points.  OK, I don't know the rule book definition, so I can't dispute this, but it seemed to appear in the same time frame as the tech fall.  Then they dropped the mandatory neutral-top-bottom positions at the start of the periods, and again, I thought the sport lost something.  If a match doesn't end in a pin, this required the wrestler to have proficiency from all positions, not just his preferred one.  From these boards, though, it appears I (we) are in the minority.  I wonder if this is how football fans from the 40's-50's felt as the game moved away from the two-way players.  I know some of the old timers criticized the new guys as one dimensional, not complete players like we were...  But the NFL and colleges became far more popular and wealthy as the game shifted.  From a business perspective, it was a gigantic success.  I'm not sure I can say the same for the changes in folkstyle over the years, but it is definitely not the same sport as practiced pre80's.  Ah well, life does not stand still for anyone.

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Hi, Cooch1, I posted this before I think, we met briefly back in 1987 in Greenbelt, Md.  My employer sent me there for work conference, fortunately the same week as NCAA's, so I got paid to make the trip.  At my hotel, soome ISU vets & fans were hanging out drinking beers between sessions (after work for me), and while they were proud of their old teammate Dan, they didn't want to see him do as well that weekend.

 

I think your comments about boxing and wrestling went over a few people's heads.  Ideally, the end result of every boxing match would be a knockout; every wrestling match would end with a pin.  Now even in the old days of fights going 40 rounds or so, people got tired of waiting for one guy to just fall over from exhaustion, so they devised point systems, as did wrestling.  It is still a lesser result, though, as you pointed out.  My first year in wrestling, we had an assistant coach who went to the NCAA's twice in the 50's, refereed a lot of matches (outside our district).  He was very explicit; if you are not working for a pin, you're stalling.  He would see a guy on bottom sneak a look at the clock, 25 seconds left in the period, I'll turtle up; he would holler, keep working, and hit guys with cautions very late in the period. Same with top guy thinking, I can't turn this guy, let's just start again next period - "caution on top man".  Coaches hated it, but he was consistent with it.  If you're not working for the pin, whatever your position, you're stalling, and he had a low threshold for calling cautions.

 

I think us dinosaurs have to accept, though, that it's a different sport now, literally.  A few years after I graduated from college (1983), they instituted the tech fall, which I thought was a bad move.  The only way a match should end early is if someone gets pinned.  Hey, it's rare, but sometimes the guy in the lead gets sloppy and gets stuck...  And then the first time I saw a tilt, I'm thinking, why did they give him points?  That wasn't a near fall, the offensive guy had his own body under the near shoulder, couldn't possibly pin him.  No, it's not near fall points, it's back points.  OK, I don't know the rule book definition, so I can't dispute this, but it seemed to appear in the same time frame as the tech fall.  Then they dropped the mandatory neutral-top-bottom positions at the start of the periods, and again, I thought the sport lost something.  If a match doesn't end in a pin, this required the wrestler to have proficiency from all positions, not just his preferred one.  From these boards, though, it appears I (we) are in the minority.  I wonder if this is how football fans from the 40's-50's felt as the game moved away from the two-way players.  I know some of the old timers criticized the new guys as one dimensional, not complete players like we were...  But the NFL and colleges became far more popular and wealthy as the game shifted.  From a business perspective, it was a gigantic success.  I'm not sure I can say the same for the changes in folkstyle over the years, but it is definitely not the same sport as practiced pre80's.  Ah well, life does not stand still for anyone.

They weren't all better pinners back then.  They were worse defensively.  Just like NBA guys weren't better at offense in the 1957-58 season because they scored more back then.  They were just worse on defense.  

 

As a sport evolves defense always catches up and you have to adjust rules to help offense, or it becomes a standstill.  You have to allow points for winning half the battle (scoring a TD) when guys become so good defensively that you can't win the whole battle (getting the pin).  You have to give some team points for a TF when a guy is too good at avoiding a pin and you can't get all the team points.

 

Pretending like guys were just great pinners back then ignores all the advances on defense made since then. 

 

I do agree that tilts are meaningless.

Edited by boconnell

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The escape point has never made much sense to me. If you get taken down, why should you earn a point for transitioning from a disadvantageous position to a neutral position?

 

Because you gained position?

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