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Can we dump greco now? Please?

 

I prefer the other styles over the greco, but I have to respect them for their efforts.   Many of these guys couldn't make it in freestyle and have opted to try greco in order to keep competing.   Kudos to them.   I thoroughly enjoyed the recognition of the 2007 greco championship team.   Gave me goose bumps.   For today I am a greco fan.    Sort of.   Go Karelin!   

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Google Tony Ramos

Very different sitatuions here.

 

Ramos felt betrayed by his coach, a person he dedicated and committed himself to and expected to have complete and undivided commitment in return in his corner.

 

As for Dake, the refs owe him or anyone else for that matter nothing.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Belarus was tossed because HE was the one with hands to the face not Burroughs.  He was a total prick the entire match.  That's what happens at big boy tournaments.  Dake might want to get used to it.  

 

 

So Dake should get used to the guy with hands to the face being tossed?       Hmmmm....

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Are you serious?  I watched the match expecting Dake to win but didn't really care who won. Close, but I didn't see anything egregious other than passivity which I am not sure has to be called or not.  This said, if you smell blood, then kill.  This is not Dake's style...then you get what you get.   

Absolutely serious. When is the last time I have been wrong regarding Burroughs? The favoritism is so blatant to have the golden boy win that it was impossible to miss. I was appalled at the way US wrestling coddled Burroughs at the trials, and I said he would not medal. I also said that once that type of favoritism is shown by a national sport's federation to an athlete it becomes ingrained and that it would be folly to try to compete with him in the same jurisdiction. Tonight proved me right again, not that it was too hard to foresee. Freestyle rules leave enough to official interpretation that the outcome can be easily influenced. Burroughs is going to get the 50/50 calls, and the 40/60 calls for that matter. He is going to get away with rule violations also. US wrestling wants Burroughs to win no matter how badly he crashed out in Rio and I think they resent Dake for questioning their practices. 

And I make no bones about how I do not respect Burroughs. I just think integrity in competition means everything. Burroughs has been the beneficiary of a cheat system, and he is perfectly fine with it. I should not blame Burroughs for officialdom nonsense, but he absolutely revels in it.   

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It's sad to say but Dake will need to beat Burroughs by 4+ points to win a match.  If the match is close, the officials will find a way to give it to Burroughs.  Burroughs is still USA's Golden Boy and you can be assured USA Wrestling (and its officiating crew) is protecting Burroughs.  

 

 

That does not make me want to attend WTT in Lincoln.    I'd like to see bouts called even, down the line.    This hurts wrestling in a big way.     

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Just curious, has head-clubbing always been a warning and then 2 point penalty? I thought that was for locking fingers.

 

My suggestion for Kyle Dake is to develop a singlet-pull offense between now and June since it probably won't be called anyway

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That does not make me want to attend WTT in Lincoln.    I'd like to see bouts called even, down the line.    This hurts wrestling in a big way.     

I said this last time around (deja vu all over again) that this sport was thisclose to being thrown out of the Olympics and yet US wrestling cannot even get something as fundamental as just basic, fair competition correct. It comes off as sordid. Wrestling isn't boxing. One athlete is not supposed to get "benefit of the doubt" calls and gift decisions. 

Edited by straggler

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Absolutely serious. When is the last time I have been wrong regarding Burroughs? The favoritism is so blatant to have the golden boy win that it was impossible to miss. I was appalled at the way US wrestling coddled Burroughs at the trials, and I said he would not medal. I also said that once that type of favoritism is shown by a national sport's federation to an athlete it becomes ingrained and that it would be folly to try to compete with him in the same jurisdiction. Tonight proved me right again, not that it was too hard to foresee. Freestyle rules leave enough to official interpretation that the outcome can be easily influenced. Burroughs is going to get the 50/50 calls, and the 40/60 calls for that matter. He is going to get away with rule violations also. US wrestling wants Burroughs to win no matter how badly he crashed out in Rio and I think they resent Dake for questioning their practices.

And I make no bones about how I do not respect Burroughs. I just think integrity in competition means everything. Burroughs has been the beneficiary of a cheat system, and he is perfectly fine with it. I should not blame Burroughs for officialdom nonsense, but he absolutely revels in it.

 

You make many valid points in your post and it's not right, but at the same times it's also human nature. Personally i dont think the officails or USA Wrestling is deliberately and intentionally favoring Burroughs or anyone else for that matter, but its more inline with the idea of unconcious bias and I certainly wouldn't go as far as calling it an outright cheat system. Human beings are bias. So in order for Dake or any other American for that matter to beat Burroughs it's going to have to come down to him actually scoring definitive objective points via pushout, takedowns and turns. He's not going to win the match off of anything subjective like passivity calls, or illegal holds being called. Those favors are going to go Burroughs way. At the same time, if Dake had the list of internarional accolades that Burroughs did, he would probably be enjoying those same benefits and be "reveling in it" as well. I mean seriously who wpuldnt?

 

I posted a question in the other thread about Dake asking, if he had the bye to the WTT finals would he still complain that the bye was unfair. If he had won tonight and gotten the bye to the finals himself would be give uo that bye and enter the tournament because he believed so adamantly that the bye was unfair? This is not a knock on him because I have a very hard time believing that ANYONE would, because it's human nature to believe that it's only unfair when someone else has an advantage over me, but when I have the advantage it's all good and dandy. Things look a lot different when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

The fact of the matter is in order for Dake or anyone for that matter to become the top guy, over a guy with Burroughs accolades he needs to leave no doubt and do it in a fashion that is undisputable.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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That does not make me want to attend WTT in Lincoln.    I'd like to see bouts called even, down the line.    This hurts wrestling in a big way.

 

This happens in every sport, not just wrestling.

In fact this happens in every facet of life!

Job interviewing, politics, personal relationships, professional relationships, business dealings, contract negotions.

 

It's the hot topic of micro aggressions and unconscious bias.

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Burroughs was wrestling his normal style, and Belarus was very upset at all the hands JB was doing to the face, so he hit back. It was called against Belarus, but not Burroughs.

 

When you are the icon of a sport, you are going to get away with things. It's like how refs in basketball would call fouls against Michael Jordan or how they do against Lebron James.

 

Either way...Dake and his fans shouldn't be blaming the refs when the guys spent the entire match in a tripod, and his only offense was 2 pushouts.

Wait and what was Burroughs offense? Take one shot and pray for a shot clock? Oh yes.

 

The better wrestler lost tonight and it's a shame because I'm sure he will be exhausted when he has to wrestle him at WTT. Oh well, Dake could've and should've done more.

 

That being said, I am done with freestyle after this tournament. The Ramos/NATO, JO/PSU matches, and this match just make me disgusted. Not with the result so much as the inability to get a clear winner. That's not wrestling. I'm done with criteria, almost throws counting, and shot clock/cautions/push outs deciding matches.

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You make many valid points in your post and it's not completely right, but at the same times it's also human nature. Personally i dont think the officails or USA Wrestling id deliberately and intentionally favoring Burroughs or anyone else for that matter, but its more inline with the idea of unconcious bias. Human beings are bias. So in order for Dake or any other American for that matter to beat Burroughs it's going to have to come down to him actually scoring definitive objective points via pushout, takedowns and turns. He's not going to win the match off of passivity calls, or illegal holds being called. Those favors are going to go Burroughs way. At the same time, if Dake had the list of internarional accolades that Burroughs did, he would probably be enjoying those same benefits and be "reveling in it" as well.

 

I posted a question in the other thread about Dake asking, if he had the bye to the WTT finals would he still complain that the bye was unfair. If he had won tonight and gotten the bye to the finals himself would be give uo that bye and enter the tournament because he believed so adamantly that the bye was unfair? This is not a knock on him because I have a very hard time believing that ANYONE would, because it's human nature to believe that it's only unfair when someone else has an advantage over me, but when I have the advantage it's all good and dandy. Things look a lot different when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

The fact of the matter is in order for Dake or anyone for that matter to become the top guy, over a guy with Burroughs accolades he needs to leave no doubt and do it in a fashion that is undisputable.

I thought he convincingly outwrestled Burroughs in the first challenge match at the trials. But presto, Burroughs got the magic four points on a throw he did not initiate. It is beyond getting some vague benefit of the doubt when the calls become so inconsistent. At some point that verges on a fixed outcome. Or maybe we can call it the officially preferred outcome. Essentially not only does Dake have to beat Burroughs, but he has to do it in a way that the match cannot be stolen from him outright. That is truly pathetic. 

 

The bye is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in sports. You might as well ask one athlete to wear weighted shoes. No one deserves it. But those were the stakes, and that is probably why we saw another "preferred" result. 

 

The idea that a lot of people walked away from a match thinking one athlete got screwed and that this was done as part of an official policy of giving the champ (Rio notwithstanding) every conceivable benefit is toxic for the sport. This is not a one off.   

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I thought he convincingly outwrestled Burroughs in the first challenge match at the trials. But presto, Burroughs got the magic four points on a throw he did not initiate. It is beyond getting some vague benefit of the doubt when the calls become so inconsistent. At some point that verges on a fixed outcome. Or maybe we can call it the officially preferred outcome. Essentially not only does Dake have to beat Burroughs, but he has to do it in a way that the match cannot be stolen from him outright. That is truly pathetic. 

 

The bye is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in sports. You might as well ask one athlete to wear weighted shoes. No one deserves it. But those were the stakes, and that is probably why we saw another "preferred" result. 

 

The idea that a lot of people walked away from a match thinking one athlete got screwed and that this was done as part of an official policy of giving the champ (Rio notwithstanding) every conceivable benefit is toxic for the sport. This is not a one off.   

 

i agree with a bye for all previous years medalists, they deserve it by proving they belong at the world championships, BUT just because you win a tournament over the SAME GUYS YOULL BE SEEING AT THE WTT you shouldn't get a bye, the only byes this year should be Logie, Snyder, and Cox... thats it, anyone else getting a bye did NOT earn anything and is gifted the advantage

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I thought he convincingly outwrestled Burroughs in the first challenge match at the trials. But presto, Burroughs got the magic four points on a throw he did not initiate. It is beyond getting some vague benefit of the doubt when the calls become so inconsistent. At some point that verges on a fixed outcome. Or maybe we can call it the officially preferred outcome. Essentially not only does Dake have to beat Burroughs, but he has to do it in a way that the match cannot be stolen from him outright. That is truly pathetic.

 

The bye is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in sports. You might as well ask one athlete to wear weighted shoes. No one deserves it. But those were the stakes, and that is probably why we saw another "preferred" result.

 

The idea that a lot of people walked away from a match thinking one athlete got screwed and that this was done as part of an official policy of giving the champ (Rio notwithstanding) every conceivable benefit is toxic for the sport. This is not a one off.

 

I agree but I do take issue with someone saying "I have no respect for Burroughs" because he's the beneficiary of these advantages. When NO ONE would ever reject or turn away these benefits if they were bestowed upon them.

 

As for that four point throw, that type of subjective interpretation is another reason why I dislike and have a hard time taking freestyle seriously over folkstyle.

 

 

And fyi these benefits doesn't just go to Burroughs, it also goes for Snyder, and Cox, And Steiber or any returning champion for any sport anywhere for that matter.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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i agree with a bye for all previous years medalists, they deserve it by proving they belong at the world championships, BUT just because you win a tournament over the SAME GUYS YOULL BE SEEING AT THE WTT you shouldn't get a bye, the only byes this year should be Logie, Snyder, and Cox... thats it, anyone else getting a bye did NOT earn anything and is gifted the advantage

I disagree. Last year was a long time ago. What happened last year is irrelevant to this year. Imo no bye for anyone.

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I disagree. Last year was a long time ago. What happened last year is irrelevant to this year. Imo no bye for anyone.

 

i agree with your assessment over the crap we have now, either just world Medalists or remove it completely 

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i agree with your assessment over the crap we have now, either just world Medalists or remove it completely

 

Remove it completely. There is seriously ZERO justification for a returning champion or medalist to get a bye to the finals! Last year was last year!

 

Should the Cleveland Cavaliers get a bye to the NBA finals? Should the New England Patriots get a bye to the Superbowl? Should the Chicago Cubs get a bye to the world series? What you earned last season has nothing to do with this season.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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I agree but I do take issue with someone saying "I have no respect for Burroughs" because he's the beneficiary of these advantages. When NO ONE would ever reject or turn away these benefits if they were bestowed upon them.

 

As for that four point throw, that type of subjective interpretation is another reason why I dislike and have a hard time taking freestyle seriously over folkstyle.

 

 

And fyi these benefits doesn't just go to Burroughs, it also goes for Snyder, and Cox, And Steiber or any returning champion for any sport anywhere for that matter.

Burroughs has been pretty outspoken defending the current system and the bye system. The idea that we start this nonsense again about byes based on the Open results seems insane. Did the rule changes address this? Even push the finals to the next day? 

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Burroughs has been pretty outspoken defending the current system and the bye system. The idea that we start this nonsense again about byes based on the Open results seems insane. Did the rule changes address this? Even push the finals to the next day?

 

That's because he's been the beneficiary of it. Ill be willing to bet if Dake won tonight he would defend it to!

Its only a bad rule when you yourself dont benefit from it.

When you yourself benefit from it, it's a great rule and you deserve the bye!

 

Imo If you disagree then Steiber, Cox, and Snyder and any of tonight's champions accepting byes to the finals are just as bad. And are deserving of no respect from you.

 

I'm of the opinion that no one should ever get a bye to the finals but certainly don't fault those who benefit from the rule. They have nothing to do with the creation of that rule.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Very different sitatuions here.

 

Ramos felt betrayed by his coach, a person he dedicated and committed himself to and expected to have complete and undivided commitment in return in his corner.

 

As for Dake, the refs owe him or anyone else for that matter nothing.

 

 

Of course they do.    They owe wrestling, they owe the competitors and they owe the fan base.  If they take the type of attitude you state above, we're doomed.   If there is no integrity from the refs, there is no merit to the championship.   

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I feel like this is unfortunately true.  Taylor has taken a huge step apparently, while Dake seems to be no better off than he was the last time he wrestled JB.  The international refs will also be very unfriendly with his passive style.  The passive American wrestlers always seem to do worse internationally than domestically (Rey, Marable, Hrovat, etc).  

 

Taylor beats Dake again (on paper)!

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