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This happens in every sport, not just wrestling.

In fact this happens in every facet of life!

Job interviewing, politics, personal relationships, professional relationships, business dealings, contract negotions.

 

It's the hot topic of micro aggressions and unconscious bias.

 

 

It may very well happen in all aspects, but for this discussion I think the officiating in the featured bout is what's important.      

 

With trials being just a month and a half away, I need to commit to going or not attend at all.   When I left that arena tonight, the feel was of a deflated fan base.   Reading the comments here and on other sites, with the fan base following along on real time text updates, most seem to feel the same.     It was a 1/2 empty arena for the finals tonight, and that's despite it being in Vegas.   I can see 1000 people or less turning out to Lincoln.   I will probably not be there, so subtract me from the count.   

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Of course they do.    They owe wrestling, they owe the competitors and they owe the fan base.  If they take the type of attitude you state above, we're doomed.   If there is no integrity from the refs, there is no merit to the championship.

 

I mean the refs don't owe anyone any special or personal favors. Their jobs is to call the match how they see fit. Dake disagrees with them but the refs are not obligated to even listen to is complaints.

 

Dake "whining" to the refs is VERY different from Ramos issues with Tom Brands.

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No, but he won the U.S. Open and has wins over 2 different olympic champions.  Dake has not won the US Open or beaten any olympic champions.  

Taylor has taken it up a level, Dake has not.          Dake's days of beating Taylor are in the rear view mirror.    

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I mean the refs don't owe anyone any special or personal favors. Their jobs is to call the match how they see fit. Dake disagrees with them but the refs are not obligated to even listen to is complaints.

 

Dake "whining" to the refs is VERY different from Ramos issues with Tom Brands.

 

 

I think they owe Dake, and the fan base, and wrestling in general, to not favor Burroughs.    It was really bad.   Those in the arena were letting them know and no adjustment.     What about when Gable or Brands call for stalling?  The refs cave and call it.  But the fan base screaming, the wrestler being screwed pleading with them to call it even, none of that causes a change?   The refs blew it.   

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Dake beat prime Denis Tsargush at his actual championship weight.

That was definitely not Tsargush's prime. He didn't place in the worlds that year.  I'd love for Dake to go to an international tournament and show that he really is one of the best in the world, but it hasn't happened yet.  I had these same criticisms of Taylor until his world cup performance btw.  I really thought Dake had turned a corner this past year, but clearly he is the same guy. 

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I think they owe Dake, and the fan base, and wrestling in general, to not favor Burroughs. It was really bad. Those in the arena were letting them know and no adjustment. What about when Gable or Brands call for stalling? The refs cave and call it. But the fan base screaming, the wrestler being screwed pleading with them to call it even, none of that causes a change? The refs blew it.

 

I agree, but what I'm saying a refs jobs to call a match fairly and evenly according to their interpretation of the rules and their abilities.

 

Their job is not to make you FEEL like the called it fairly.

 

I'm willing to bet those refs tonight feel that they called the match fairly. And they certainly are not obligated to listen to Dake tell them theyre wrong. In many high school and college spprts its illegal to question a refs judgement and in wrestling it can cost you points! So my overall point is Dake is wasting his breath complaining to them.

 

The refs are not going to go back and change the result.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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That was definitely not Tsargush's prime. He didn't place in the worlds that year.  I'd love for Dake to go to an international tournament and show that he really is one of the best in the world, but it hasn't happened yet.  I had these same criticisms of Taylor until his world cup performance btw.  I really thought Dake had turned a corner this past year, but clearly he is the same guy. 

 

Tsargush didn't wrestle at World's in 2013, it's not like he DNP'd.  He won them the very next year.  Meanwhile you're talking about the US Open that Taylorj ust won that did not involve him beating either finalist from last year's OTT, and definitely didn't include the reigning Olympic Bronze.

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I agree, but what I'm saying a refs jobs to call a match fairly and evenly according to their interpretation of the rules and their abilities.

 

Their job is not to make you FEEL like the called it fairly.

 

I'm willing to bet those refs tonight feel that they called the match fairly. And they certainly are not obligated to listen to Dake tell them theyre wrong. In many high school and college spprts its illegal to question a refs judgement and in wrestling it can cost you points! So my overall point is Dake is wasting his breath complaining to them.

 

The refs are not going to go back and change the result.

 

Well they didn't make me feel like they called it fairly and a ton of fans were complaining about that bout specifically but also about inconsistent reffing through out the tournament.     Numerous other examples came up  several times in the sections I was in (Titan Mercury and Oklahoma st) very knowledgeable fans voiced similar displeasure to what I was thinking.      

 

If USA wrestling is not smart enough to make sure the fan base is not being turned off by those types of things, they deserve for the fan base to leave and withdraw support.      The #1 thing in sports in integrity.   When the champ starts getting the calls, or when a particular coach or team does, explaining it away by saying it's not the ref's job isn't going to solve anything.    I attend all these things, and if I am disgusted and considering not going and instead I'll just follow here on the boards, that is not what's best for wrestling.        

 

One fan's perspective and a similar perspective I heard over the past 2 days.   

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Well they didn't make me feel like they called it fairly and a ton of fans were complaining about that bout specifically but also about inconsistent reffing through out the tournament. Numerous other examples came up several times in the sections I was in (Titan Mercury and Oklahoma st) very knowledgeable fans voiced similar displeasure to what I was thinking.

 

If USA wrestling is not smart enough to make sure the fan base is not being turned off by those types of things, they deserve for the fan base to leave and withdraw support. The #1 thing in sports in integrity. When the champ starts getting the calls, or when a particular coach or team does, explaining it away by saying it's not the ref's job isn't going to solve anything. I attend all these things, and if I am disgusted and considering not going and instead I'll just follow here on the boards, that is not what's best for wrestling.

 

One fan's perspective and a similar perspective I heard over the past 2 days.

 

I watched that match very intently and to be honest with you, the officiating was the least of my annoyances with that match. My issue was the lack of action from both wrestlers. Both Dake and Burroughs stalled the entire match. And when both wrestlers stall like that it puts things into the hands of the ref.

 

Some People are upset Burroughs didn't get penalized for the hands to the face. I'm willing to bet if he was penilzed, there would be people complaining that he shouldnt have been penilzed!

 

Burroughs won.. some people thing Dake got screwed. I'm willing to bet if Dake won there would be people saying Burroughs got screwed.

 

Look I am disappointed by the match we just saw, but I don't fault the refs in this case. I fault the stupid freestyle rules and enabled this result and match to happen this way. I've stated many times on this board that the freestyle rules leave way too much room for interpretation.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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I watched that match very intently and to be honest with you, the officiating was the least of my annoyances with that match. My issue was the lack of action from both wrestlers. Both Dake and Burroughs stalled the entire match. And when both wrestlers stall like that it puts things into the hands of the ref.

 

Some People are upset Burroughs didn't get penalized for the hands to the face. I'm willing to bet if he was penilzed, there would be people complaining that he shouldnt have been penilzed!

 

Burroughs won.. some people thing Dake got screwed. I'm willing to bet if Dake won there would be people saying Burroughs got screwed.

 

Look I am disappointed by the match we just saw, but I don't fault the refs in this case. I fault the stupid freestyle rules and enabled this result and match to happen this way. I've stated many times on this board that the freestyle rules leave way too much room for interpretation.

 

Burroughs bloodied his nose and knocked both contacts out of Dake's eyes.   Lets agree that shouldn't count against Burroughs.   Fine, that's acceptable.       Watch the Oliver/Rutherford bout, where hands to the face were called and points awarded to Oliver.     

 

I don't really care either way who won either bout.   I guess I was leaning to Oliver and Dake a little but not enough to have either result concern me much.     What bothers me and what seemed to bother much of the fan base is what you and I agree on here for the sake of discussion.   It's ok for Burroughs to do it, but not Rutherford.    And those aren't the only 2 instances, those are the two receiving most ink on the boards so the 2 I'm posting on.    It went on all weekend.      Fans left disgruntled.        A  world and Olympic champion sitting in the stands just a few seats over said "we are not going to grow the sport with non calls like that" (in reference to Dake/Burroughs).   Others said similar (albeit much more colorful)  in reference to Oliver/Rutherford.  

 

If you think it was good no calls, tell me what you thought about Oliver/Rutherford.    

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Burroughs bloodied his nose and knocked both contacts out of Dake's eyes.   Lets agree that shouldn't count against Burroughs.   Fine, that's acceptable.       Watch the Oliver/Rutherford bout, where hands to the face were called and points awarded to Oliver.     

 

I don't really care either way who won either bout.   I guess I was leaning to Oliver and Dake a little but not enough to have either result concern me much.     What bothers me and what seemed to bother much of the fan base is what you and I agree on here for the sake of discussion.   It's ok for Burroughs to do it, but not Rutherford.    And those aren't the only 2 instances, those are the two receiving most ink on the boards so the 2 I'm posting on.    It went on all weekend.      Fans left disgruntled.        A  world and Olympic champion sitting in the stands just a few seats over said "we are not going to grow the sport with non calls like that" (in reference to Dake/Burroughs).   Others said similar (albeit much more colorful)  in reference to Oliver/Rutherford.  

 

If you think it was good no calls, tell me what you thought about Oliver/Rutherford.

 

The calls against Retherford was bull. Rutherford was robbed. But again I don't fault the refs. I fault the rules that enable these results.

 

I will say this about officiating. One thing people always complain about is the last of consistency in officiating. The reason for the lack of consistency is because the refs are different people. Different people see think and feel things differently.

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That was definitely not Tsargush's prime. He didn't place in the worlds that year.  I'd love for Dake to go to an international tournament and show that he really is one of the best in the world, but it hasn't happened yet.  I had these same criticisms of Taylor until his world cup performance btw.  I really thought Dake had turned a corner this past year, but clearly he is the same guy. 

 

Tsargush didn't wrestle at World's in 2013, it's not like he DNP'd.  He won them the very next year.  Meanwhile you're talking about the US Open that Taylorj ust won that did not involve him beating either finalist from last year's OTT, and definitely didn't include the reigning Olympic Bronze.

 

Billy still has a point about 2013 as Tsargush himself said he wasn't at his best that year.  He blamed it on being very tired from the last Olympic cycle.  He went on to say he wasn't ready for the Russian championships and that Kakhaber Khubezthy would be the Russian representative at World's.  Tsargush added:  "He won the Russian championship, and I lost my chance."  You can read his comments at the below link:

 

http://www.wrestrus.ru/news/Novosti_turnirov/universiada_2013/video_denis_cargush_ja_umeju_atakovat_i_poluchaju_ot_takoj_bor_bi_udovol_stvie

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The calls against Retherford was bull. Rutherford was robbed. But again I don't fault the refs. I fault the rules that enable these results.

You keep saying the same misguided thing. The rules may leave too much to subjectivity, but Burroughs straight up broke the rules. There's a big difference between a subjective calll and an outright violation. You cannot smash a guy in the face repeatedly, let alone 1-2 punch him, no matter who you are in the sport. The REFS botched the non-calls in that specific match. The rules had nothing to do with what went wrong on that match (the rules relevant to that match are clear), it was the refs.

 

And back to an earlier point I believe you made. It is patently ridiculous to claim the refs don't owe the athletes or the fans anything. Are you just trying to troll? The refs owe everyone involved in the sport something: fair and correct enforcement of the rules. That's the reason they have jobs. Who do they owe something then if not the damn participants in the sport and the spectators who pay to watch them compete? Ridiculous.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Just curious, has head-clubbing always been a warning and then 2 point penalty? I thought that was for locking fingers.

 

My suggestion for Kyle Dake is to develop a singlet-pull offense between now and June since it probably won't be called anyway

Too difficult to pull singlets from the tripod position. Maybe he should try the South American soccer-player-dive-gambit at the next head slap. I think under the freestyle correct head slap rule he gets 4 points if he stumbles into the ref and whines convincingly.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by swoopdown

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You keep saying the same misguided thing. The rules may leave too much to subjectivity, but Burroughs straight up broke the rules. There's a big difference between a subjective calll and an outright violation. You cannot smash a guy in the face repeatedly, let alone 1-2 punch him, no matter who you are in the sport. The REFS botched the non-calls in that specific match. The rules had nothing to do with what went wrong on that match (the rules relevant to that match are clear), it was the refs.

 

And back to an earlier point I believe you made. It is patently ridiculous to claim the refs don't owe the athletes or the fans anything. Are you just trying to troll? The refs owe everyone involved in the sport something: fair and correct enforcement of the rules. That's the reason they have jobs. Who do they owe something then if not the damn participants in the sport and the spectators who pay to watch them compete? Ridiculous.

Well said. Trying to rationalize refs and officials in a sport blatantly showing favoritism and not calling matches fairly and accurately is ridiculous. It goes to the very integrity of the sport.  

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Well said. Trying to rationalize refs and officials in a sport blatantly showing favoritism and not calling matches fairly and accurately is ridiculous. It goes to the very integrity of the sport.  

Agree. The refs were out of line to say the least in many matches. The rules suck yes but the refs subjectivity in this whole event was the worst I have ever seen in over 30 years of wrestling. 

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Agree. The refs were out of line to say the least in many matches. The rules suck yes but the refs subjectivity in this whole event was the worst I have ever seen in over 30 years of wrestling.

 

I've seen worse. Nothing youve said is wrong. I agree with it all. I all really boils down to this. You blame the refs, i blame the system. You say that the refs have to have integrity, I say depending on someone's integrity is impossible because we all have inherent unconscious biases. I guess I have a hard time when I see wrestlers complaining directly to the refs, even if the refs were wrong. I was always told by my coaches control the things you can. The refs are something you can't, and complaining to them won't get you anywhere, especially on the mat.

 

I also don't think this is a Burroughs conspiracy that people are making it out to be. I believe Snyder will enjoy these same benefits anytjme he wrestles on american soil, From my vantage point, neither wrestler did a whole lot and IMO Dake left it in the hands of the refs.

 

Also this tangent also stemmed off of the comment that Ramos was as big at whining as Dake.

Ramos was "whining" because he felt betrayed by Tom Brands. If feel that refs don't owe you anything personally where as a coach does. That's why comparing Dake and Ramos as whiners is different.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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EXCEPT when it's JB in the US. Then his opponent gets called for two shot clocks no matter how little JB actually did to earn it.

Same can be said for Dake. Dake actually benefited from the same two in a row shot clock in his earlier while he did " very little to earn them" (Dieringer) Edited by tbert

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I've seen worse. Nothing youve said is wrong. I agree with it all. I all really boils down to this. You blame the refs, i blame the system. You say that the refs have to have integrity, I say depending on someone's integrity is impossible because we all have inherent unconscious biases. I guess I have a hard time when I see wrestlers complaining directly to the refs, even if the refs were wrong. I was always told by my coaches control the things you can. The refs are something you can't, and complaining to them won't get you anywhere, especially on the mat.

 

I also don't think this is a Burroughs conspiracy that people are making it out to be. I believe Snyder will enjoy these same benefits anytjme he wrestles on american soil, From my vantage point, neither wrestler did a whole lot and IMO Dake left it in the hands of the refs.

 

Also this tangent also stemmed off of the comment that Ramos was as big at whining as Dake.

Ramos was "whining" because he felt betrayed by Tom Brands. If feel that refs don't owe you anything personally where as a coach does. That's why comparing Dake and Ramos as whiners is different.

It is not "unconscious bias." It's a rigged outcome. Call it what it is. A nation sport's federation is blatantly playing favorites and their favorite keeps getting the benefit of playing by different rules while mysteriously getting every subjective call. Does Burroughs win this match in Russia or Rio or anywhere but under the auspices of US wrestling? This is the second time Dake outwrestled him and yet the system found a way. That is why my Rio call was so easy. Not hard to predict what will happen when a protected athlete is not being protected any longer, where all of the sudden those calls are not going his way and the deck is not stacked. This is another match where Burroughs could not get to Dake's legs. Once that was apparent we can foresee all the rest. 

 

Reviewing the match again, the face pushing and head pushing was going on all match. Burrough's first point was due to a blatant head/face push. Not only does this account for his entire "offense" but it was his main defense.  Then you have the passivity calls that even the announcers were questioniing. And the late passivity call (the third against Dake in the match I believe) was in reality a two point swing. Because due to the laughable scoring criteria Burroughs gets awarded the match based on a very cheap passivity point where Dake had two push outs to Burrough's one. That is virtually rigging the match. And again Burroughs won't get late passivity calls like this internationally. Speed is always the first thing that goes.  

 

If you want to label noticing you are getting repeatedly screwed by your sport's national governing body whining, OK.      

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