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fullnelson

Freestyle subjectivity

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 After watching some of the matches from the Open, I grieve at how the subjectivity is ruining the sport. The subjectivity in the shot clock, the caution and 2, and the correct throw interpretations are incredibly inconsistent. Then you throw in interpretations of finger fighting, hands to the face, and 'not engaging' calls (I know it's the caution and 2 scenario), coupled with refs that are either bias or incompetent, or both.

Examples-

 Retherford and Oliver (worst officiating in years, at least on US soil), Retherford held the center of the mat the whole time, hands in the face call (not nearly as egregious as Burroughs to Dake), then the bogus correct throw call. Oliver did so little, not even close to scoring, but wins on 2 undeserving calls based on subjectivity.

 Look at the last 20 seconds of Rey vs Gwiz, and tell me that Gwiz is disengaging any more than Burroughs did on last 20 of the Dake match. Dake's put on the clock 2x to Burroughs 0, with absolutely no clear reason why; neither was taking the risk, plus JB got away with a ton of face jabs and finger fight infractions.

 Incidentally, JO has just been added to my hope-he-never-wins-again list for the way he reacted after being literally given the match over Retherford, he's the antithesis of humility.

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I just watched the Zain JO match. I guess I don't understand freestyle wrestling because that match made zero sense to me. JO does absolutely nothing the entire match and somehow wins? Can someone please explain why the match was scored that way? I feel bad for Zain.

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I was thinking the same about Gwiz. In folkstyle we always had the obligatory stall call with 30 seconds left but I guess freestyle now has cautions, shot clocks, correct throws in the last 30.

 

I am still wrapping my brain around watching a U.S. National tournament and there were so many matches with zero offensive points besides some sumo pushouts.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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 After watching some of the matches from the Open, I grieve at how the subjectivity is ruining the sport. The subjectivity in the shot clock, the caution and 2, and the correct throw interpretations are incredibly inconsistent. Then you throw in interpretations of finger fighting, hands to the face, and 'not engaging' calls (I know it's the caution and 2 scenario), coupled with refs that are either bias or incompetent, or both.

Examples-

 Retherford and Oliver (worst officiating in years, at least on US soil), Retherford held the center of the mat the whole time, hands in the face call (not nearly as egregious as Burroughs to Dake), then the bogus correct throw call. Oliver did so little, not even close to scoring, but wins on 2 undeserving calls based on subjectivity.

 Look at the last 20 seconds of Rey vs Gwiz, and tell me that Gwiz is disengaging any more than Burroughs did on last 20 of the Dake match. Dake's put on the clock 2x to Burroughs 0, with absolutely no clear reason why; neither was taking the risk, plus JB got away with a ton of face jabs and finger fight infractions.

 Incidentally, JO has just been added to my hope-he-never-wins-again list for the way he reacted after being literally given the match over Retherford, he's the antithesis of humility.

 

Sounds like you don't like the international style. I hear these complaints every year. If it bothers you so much might I suggest just staying with folk stlye, because as we all know there is never any questioning the officiating there.

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Agree 100 %. Folskyle is not as subjective and the better wrestler wins more often than freestyle.

 

I saw a David Taylor interview where he had to talk to the ref because he shot 15 times to 0 on Heflin and Heflin didn't even get a stalling warning.

 

The margin between elite level athletes is very very small, so the difference is as much about officiating and luck as to who wins 

 

The shot clock rule doesn't even work. It doesn't make guys more aggressive, look at how boring the matches still are, it just wastes 30 seconds of the match where we are waiting for the shot clock to expire. The guy who isn't on the shot clock just turns into a defensive wrestler and stalls so it's impossible to score. At least a minute a match is wasted with the shot clock. And yet this random draw of when to call it is often the difference in who wins based on last point scored criteria. This sounds to me just as bad as the ball grab

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It looks like the UWW has put control of who wins and who looses matches that are close back in there hands. Isn't that what got the sport in trouble before. this caution and 2 correct throws, I don't understand the open hand grabbing at all, finger fighting. hands to the face has always been illegal. make it illegal and call it that way. call stalling. back in the 60, 70's  into the 80's there was a lot more scoring. I may be remembering wrong. then we keep changing the rules, this is not ice skating or gymnastics. wrestling should not be 90% subjective.

 

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Sounds like you don't like the international style. I hear these complaints every year. If it bothers you so much might I suggest just staying with folk stlye, because as we all know there is never any questioning the officiating there.

I think we might have a new candidate for US wrestling chairman. The most passionate fans in a struggling sport that came this close to losing its Olympic affiliation express legitimate and well founded frustration with a sport that cannot get its act together even regarding something as basic as scoring and point out things that absolutely need to be done to improve if not save the sport, and in response they are told that they just don't get freestyle and that it can get along without them thank you very much. Got my vote.

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I think we might have a new candidate for US wrestling chairman. The most passionate fans in a struggling sport that came this close to losing its Olympic affiliation express legitimate and well founded frustration with a sport that cannot get its act together even regarding something as basic as scoring and point out things that absolutely need to be done to improve if not save the sport, and in response they are told that they just don't get freestyle and that it can get along without them thank you very much. Got my vote.

 

And because folk style has done such an amazing job in converting the masses to the point where it no longer loses programs because it is self supporting.

 

We are a sport at war with itself and the results are right in front of us. For me, I already spent my retirement on the sport. I just watch and occasionally comment now. If it dies it dies.

Edited by sgallan

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And because folk style has done such an amazing job in converting the masses to the point where it no longer loses programs because it is self supporting.

 

We are a sport at war with itself and the results are right in front of us. For me, I already spent my retirement on the sport. I just watch and occasionally comment now. If it dies it dies.

Ok Ivan Drago

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Sounds like you don't like the international style. I hear these complaints every year. If it bothers you so much might I suggest just staying with folk stlye, because as we all know there is never any questioning the officiating there.

 

sgallan,

   Apparently you have been around, as have I; surely you would have to agree that the way rules/at least official's interpretation of the rules is lacking in many respects. Granted, I think we can all agree that it is still leap years ahead of the  'ball-grab single leg clinch' or 'bodylock clinch' eras. The best years that I recall were 1980-1999 (I loved the wrestling rules of the 70's but 9 min with 2 one min breaks was too long), with some exceptions (I didn't like the single 5 minute period match w/no break, 94) I've seen a lot of heartache from poor officiating (Greg Gibson totally hosed in 81 World's final, then the backroom video reviews that took our guys from their expected finals matches thru the years-Kolat twice, for example).

  The ONLY improvement in rules today from the era I mention, IMO is the step-out rule; mainly because it keeps the wrestlers in the center which should speed matches up, although I've noticed these freestyle officials stop matches far more frequently than they should, because they don't officiate as many matches, as say NCAA officials, so they are out to prove how much they know to impress the evaluators (just my opinion).

  Anyway, when the World Cup was in Toledo, it was awesome and then follow that up with the Worlds-incredible wrestling, not without controversy (there's always controversy). I've been to 42 NCAAs , and I love them, but the Cup and the Worlds (20+Worlds/Olympics) were by far better. When the clinch and following ball-grab era evolved, my love for freestyle waned considerably, but with FILA out and new rules introduced it returned to some of the best wrestling I'd seen in years (65 kg in Vegas was the over the top great). But now, WHY add these rules which overshadow the good in wrestling.  Please Sgallan, please rewatch the Oliver-Retherford match and see the debacle of new rules, and what makes it worse is the referee making the call; he has way, way too say in the outcome.

 The level of quality in the competitors is what makes/should make international freestyle the better event. GET rid of the increased subjectivity is all I'm proposing, then freestyle IS the best.

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