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Plasmodium

Hands to the face

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Here is my two cents on hands to the face rule(article 48):

1)It is unavoidable in wrestling and therefore every wrestler could be penalized during the course of every match.  Should they? No way.

2)It should only be enforced when a wrestler repeatedly ignores attentions given by the ref.

3)Because it is unavoidable, it cannot be fairly enforced.

3)JB breaks this rule slightly more than average, but not excessively.

4)Zain Retherford is a big offender.  He earned his caution against Oliver.

Edited by Plasmodium

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Either enforce the rule as written in the rule book or get rid of it. Don't have it in there just for shts and giggles. Hands to the face is not subjective like passivity. It can be 100% verified by video review. There's zero excuse for having an objective rule in the rule book that the ref can enforce st his or her own discretion. This type of rule ruins the credibility of the sport. It's like letting refs decide when to award a pushout.

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Zain's FS career will be greatly limited if he cannot break his habit of excessive hands to the face.  Opponents (like JO/Zeke) are already using it against him.  Question is how effective of a wrestler he will be at the international level if he is forced to abandon that tactic. 

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Here is my two cents on hands to the face rule(article 48):

1)It is unavoidable in wrestling and therefore every wrestler could be penalized during the course of every match. Should they? No way.

2)It should only be enforced when a wrestler repeatedly ignores attentions given by the ref.

3)Because it is unavoidable, it cannot be fairly enforced.

3)JB breaks this rule slightly more than average, but not excessively.

4)Zain Retherford is a big offender. He earned his caution against Oliver.

JB's were more egregious than ZR, who most certainly earned his as well. Typical the champ getting the call and no one else does. Ridiculous how we have a set of rules that so clearly allow bias to be involved.

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JB's were more egregious than ZR, who most certainly earned his as well. Typical the champ getting the call and no one else does. Ridiculous how we have a set of rules that so clearly allow bias to be involved.

Believe me.. Dake has benefited from the no calls and been given points because of who he is.

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You can't jam your palms into someones nose. This rules makes sense and his necessary.

 

You must be able to palm your opponents forehead, it is not harmful and tactically essentially in some situations. 

 

Zain Retherford being cautioned for palming the head, which he uses to relentlessly control the mat, match, and set up leg attacks is an atrocity. .

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You can't jam your palms into someones nose. This rules makes sense and his necessary.

 

You must be able to palm your opponents forehead, it is not harmful and tactically essentially in some situations. 

 

 

Either enforce the rule as written in the rule book or get rid of it. 

Is there a difference between what you two are describing? Does the rule book illustrate the difference between posting on the forehead and a hand to the face? I can imagine an illustration, or even a description of the heel of the hand landing under the brow line that would make this clear.

A quick search for the term "hand" in the rulebook found 17 uses of the word, but nothing pertaining to face. 

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/media/document/wrestling_rules_10.pdf

Am I looking at the wrong thing?

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Here is my two cents on hands to the face rule(article 48):

1)It is unavoidable in wrestling and therefore every wrestler could be penalized during the course of every match.  Should they? No way.

Driving the palm of your hand into someones face during a match is not unavoidable. It is an intentional move used by many wrestlers and it seems to be happening more and more in recent years because it is so effective and rarely called. There are many wrestlers that do not do this at all.

 

It is also an easy thing for a ref to spot. The issue seems to be that few refs are calling it and those that are calling it are doing it inconsistently.

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Is there a difference between what you two are describing? Does the rule book illustrate the difference between posting on the forehead and a hand to the face? I can imagine an illustration, or even a description of the heel of the hand landing under the brow line that would make this clear.

A quick search for the term "hand" in the rulebook found 17 uses of the word, but nothing pertaining to face. 

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/media/document/wrestling_rules_10.pdf

Am I looking at the wrong thing?

 

 

Read more carefully. I posted this in another thread (http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/14951-nothing-to-see-here/page-2):

 

  • Article 48 - General Prohibitions: "TOUCH HIS [OPPONENT'S] FACE BETWEEN THE EYEBROWS AND THE LINE OF THE MOUTH"
  • Article 51 - Illegal Holds: "HOLDING THE HEAD OR NECK WITH TWO HANDS..."

 

The rules are crystal clear.

 

You CANNOT touch your opponent's face between the line of the mouth and the eyebrows. In other words, don't touch, let alone punch or jam, a guy anywhere near the eyes or nose. Why this rule is in place is too obvious to discuss in more detail.

 

You CANNOT hold a guy's head with two hands, as JB did when he jammed Dake's face (thereby violating not one but two rules at once). Just look at the picture in the aforementioned thread titled "Nothing to see here" and tell me that should be legal.

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Dake should be forced to keep his knees off the mat and penalized for doing so ( which he sort of was for having 2 cautions) and JB should have been penalized for the slaps and the finger grabs.

 

There is absolutely nothing illegal or wrong with dropping to a knee or a three-point stance SO LONG AS you use it to score or engage. Therefore, he should NOT be forced to keep his knees off the mat. That is ridiculous. Should he be forced to engage more? Debatable, since that determination is subjective, but sure, I'll agree with it.

 

On the other hand, objectively, I fully agree JB should have been penalized many times. Not penalizing him for violating a highly objective rule is like allowing him to use cutbacks, full nelsons, guillotine chokes, and kimuras. Either call an objective violation or take the rule out of the rule book. Don't leave something so objective up to the referee's discretion.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Read more carefully. I posted this in another thread (http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/14951-nothing-to-see-here/page-2):

 

  • Article 48 - General Prohibitions: "TOUCH HIS [OPPONENT'S] FACE BETWEEN THE EYEBROWS AND THE LINE OF THE MOUTH"
  • Article 51 - Illegal Holds: "HOLDING THE HEAD OR NECK WITH TWO HANDS..."

 

The rules are crystal clear.

 

You CANNOT touch your opponent's face between the line of the mouth and the eyebrows. In other words, don't touch, let alone punch or jam, a guy anywhere near the eyes or nose. Why this rule is in place is too obvious to discuss in more detail.

 

You CANNOT hold a guy's head with two hands, as JB did when he jammed Dake's face (thereby violating not one but two rules at once). Just look at the picture in the aforementioned thread titled "Nothing to see here" and tell me that should be legal.

Its not legal.  He should have received a finger wag for that.

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Its not legal.  He should have received a finger wag for that.

 

It's listed as a "general prohibition", which seems to me to be clearly illegal. 

I understand that you might just be provoking wrestlingnerd, but otherwise, do you interpret "generally prohibited" as something subjective? Maybe it should be "strictly prohibited". 

I think most of us would agree that less subjectivity is better, as long as it doesn't result in a ball-grab.

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Let's not make JB the only bad guy, at 4:17 (video time)on the Dake semi final match he snaps back dieringers head with a clear open hand blow to face. Caution plus two changes that match.

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Believe me.. Dake has benefited from the no calls and been given points because of who he is.

Quite right.  That is why I think he gets overly frustrated and whines.  I envision him saying to himself, "Don't you know who I am. Come on, I'm Kyle Dake. You know, Kid Dynamite."  He was catered to and worshiped so intently during college, it seems to have been difficult for him to overcome that. The underdog role has been a tough change for him. 

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Let's not make JB the only bad guy, at 4:17 (video time)on the Dake semi final match he snaps back dieringers head with a clear open hand blow to face. Caution plus two changes that match.

Yes, he did, but it was not multiple times.  And, if the ref would  have said something, it would only have been an attention, not 2.  Juxtapose the Dake-Dierenger and the Dake-Burroughs match.  Dake v Dierenger: Dake had a higher pace, more attacks, more movement and did not have hand/knee on mat near as much.  What would happen if Dake wrested Burroughs the way he did Dierenger?  Maybe open himself up to Burroughs attacks and thus to Burroughs take downs.  But, it would also help him create more of his own attacks and lower the chance of being put on the clock.  And, I believe, it would inhibit the Burroughs hands in the face to some degree.  Burroughs would have to engage more proactively.  Anyway, I think Dake has a lot of control over how the next Burroughs much plays out.  He can play the chess match and hope.  Or he can pick up the pace and believe.  I also wonder what would happen if roles were reversed.  What if Burroughs took a knee and placed his hand on the mat for 90% of the match?

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Yes, he did, but it was not multiple times. And, if the ref would have said something, it would only have been an attention, not 2. Juxtapose the Dake-Dierenger and the Dake-Burroughs match. Dake v Dierenger: Dake had a higher pace, more attacks, more movement and did not have hand/knee on mat near as much. What would happen if Dake wrested Burroughs the way he did Dierenger? Maybe open himself up to Burroughs attacks and thus to Burroughs take downs. But, it would also help him create more of his own attacks and lower the chance of being put on the clock. And, I believe, it would inhibit the Burroughs hands in the face to some degree. Burroughs would have to engage more proactively. Anyway, I think Dake has a lot of control over how the next Burroughs much plays out. He can play the chess match and hope. Or he can pick up the pace and believe. I also wonder what would happen if roles were reversed. What if Burroughs took a knee and placed his hand on the mat for 90% of the match?

Good points but I thought dake wrestled both matches very similar, especially when ahead.

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Good points but I thought dake wrestled both matches very similar, especially when ahead.

Yes, he got conservative in the Dierenger match, surprisingly.  I wonder if he just appears to have more movement against Dierenger because JB can control the match more. 

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It's listed as a "general prohibition", which seems to me to be clearly illegal. 

I understand that you might just be provoking wrestlingnerd, but otherwise, do you interpret "generally prohibited" as something subjective? Maybe it should be "strictly prohibited". 

I think most of us would agree that less subjectivity is better, as long as it doesn't result in a ball-grab.

I'm not trying provoke.  This is how it is actually officiated.   This is why this thread exists.  

I think one problem that we may have is translation.   Are these originally written in French or some language other than English?  Maybe the French is good, but they do a shoddy job of translating to English and other Languages.  Another example is stepping on the feet.  The actual word used is "tread".  Is it stomp or is it the Yazdani step that is illegal?  Maybe it is supposed to be "push" but it was translated to "touch".  

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