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BigTenFanboy

Freestyle Wrestlers who Learned to Folkstyle

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Am Freestylers only compete against semi-elite to elite level Foreign Freestylers.

Semi-elite freestylers that learn folk get to compete against the full range of Folkstylers from low level to Elite, thus get to show more "success".

 

Go ahead an explain your thought more fully.

 

I would argue that not every guy who wrestles on the senior level is considered semi-elite. For example, I wouldn't say that every guy (African and many South American and Asian nations) who competes at Worlds or the Olympics is top notch when looking at the entire field, let alone guys in the 3-10 range in most countries. I think tournaments like Medved or Tahkti Cup are better gauges of the strongest opponents on the World stage than say the NYAC or Schultz because it shows a lot of depth in the strongest wrestling nations. Unfortunately only one guy a year gets to rep each nation at Worlds, otherwise you'd probably have the "Caucasus Regions Show," for the most part.

 

With your logic I could easily make the Argument that the only "elite level" American folkstylers who venture down Freestyle is Logan Steiber, Jordan Burroughs and Kyle Snyder and anyone else is not truly elite level. Using them as examples I can say that American Folk produces better freestylers than life long freestylers.

 

Go ahead and "easily make the argument." It sounds like a lot of opinion and supposition will be supplied, not unlike your examples above.

 

The problem for your argument is that we actually have proof of real matches wrestled by real Freestylers from foreign nations who come here for college who were significantly more successful at American Folk in a short amount of time than the other way around.

 

Elite level Folkstylers from the US tend to do pretty well against Foreign freestylers which is why we consistently have medalists every year in world competition. As Americans we tend to believe that unless we're constantly World Champions, we're no good.

 

This is where you're trying to make the data fit for your argument. When looking at American Folkers who walk straight into Senior level Free with less than a year of exposure to the international style, those results you're trying to uphold don't work all that often in this discussion. You and everyone else here knows that the overwhelming majority of Freestyle success that U.S. male athletes have attained has been a result of years and years and years of training in the style from the Cadet and Junior level into seniors. Jordan Burroughs is an outlier.

 

 

The fairest way to do make an assumption that is not speculative is have a list of instances where American and Foreign wrestlers faced each other in both styles, and see how the results compare from one to another.

 

This is not what the thread is about. The topic is very easy to understand. In your posts you keep moving the target to fit the outcome you want based on your biases.

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Go ahead an explain your thought more fully.

 

I would argue that not every guy who wrestles on the senior level is considered semi-elite. For example, I wouldn't say that every guy (African and many South American and Asian nations) who competes at Worlds or the Olympics is top notch when looking at the entire field, let alone guys in the 3-10 range in most countries. I think tournaments like Medved or Tahkti Cup are better gauges of the strongest opponents on the World stage than say the NYAC or Schultz because it shows a lot of depth in the strongest wrestling nations. Unfortunately only one guy a year gets to rep each nation at Worlds, otherwise you'd probably have the "Caucasus Regions Show," for the most part.

 

 

 

Go ahead and "easily make the argument." It sounds like a lot of opinion and supposition will be supplied, not unlike your examples above.

 

The problem for your argument is that we actually have proof of real matches wrestled by real Freestylers from foreign nations who come here for college who were significantly more successful at American Folk in a short amount of time than the other way around.

 

 

 

This is where you're trying to make the data fit for your argument. When looking at American Folkers who walk straight into Senior level Free with less than a year of exposure to the international style, those results you're trying to uphold don't work all that often in this discussion. You and everyone else here knows that the overwhelming majority of Freestyle success that U.S. male athletes have attained has been a result of years and years and years of training in the style from the Cadet and Junior level into seniors. Jordan Burroughs is an outlier.

 

 

 

 

This is not what the thread is about. The topic is very easy to understand. In your posts you keep moving the target to fit the outcome you want based on your biases.

It's funny that you're saying I'm using my bias to fit my outcome. I'll admit to that. But at the same time I feel you're doing the exact same thing. My argument of using Burroughs, Snyder, and Stieber was an intentional cherry picking of wrestlers similar in contrast to how I feel you staged your argument. I did not literally mean that they're the only cases to use.

 

My overall point was this. The freestylers who go on to try folk are typically the elite level freestylers. I would absolutely expect them to be successful.

 

Folkstylers that try freestyle are not always elite level, so you're going to see a broad range of results. In your earlier statement you said, let's only use the elite level wrestlers. This is why I cherry picked Burroughs, Stieber, and Snyder. I DONT think this it's a valid argument, it's me using imo a similar logic that you used in your argument of only going by elite results.

 

Furthermore, it's generally considered more difficult to win the Olympics or a world title than an NCAA title correct? How many of these guys were Division 1 NCAA champions mentioned here? There have been countless American World and Olympic Champions..

 

The NCAA stage is considerably smaller than the rest of the world. Another reason why NCAA folkstyle success would be expected amongst elite level freestylers. To make a more fair and accurate comparison let's bring our national team members and have them compete in other countries national championships, not the entire world. This is what the free to folk wrestlers are doing. I would not be surprised if the US wrestlers would win more foreign national titles than free to folk are winning NCAA titles.

 

IMO there's not enough data to prove the freestyle to folkstyle translates to better results than vice versa. Im of the opinion that its inconclusive, youre of the opinion thats its definitive. Lets agree to disagree, Fair enough?

 

As for what this thread is about, I think I would know what it's about considering the fact that I created it.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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It's funny that you're saying I'm using my bias to fit my outcome. I'll admit to that. But at the same time I feel you're doing the exact same thing. My argument of using Burroughs, Snyder, and Stieber was an intentional cherry picking of wrestlers similar in contrast to how I feel you staged your argument. I did not literally mean that they're the only cases to use.

 

I understood that you didn't mean they were the only three, but even two of those don't fit your initial post as I understood it.

 

Of the three you mentioned, Burroughs is the only one who was not wrestling Freestyle full-time for an extended period of time by the time he won his first World Gold at the Senior level. He also had, by his own admission, very little training and competition in Free leading up to his run.

 

LogieBear has been out of college and focusing on free for more than 1.5 years, with substantial training and competition on the World level at age group in Free leading up to his gold medal last December. And I am not at all diminishing his World title as an accomplishment, but he did it at a non-Olympic weight where the field is thinned out considerably.

 

Kyle, as we are all aware, has a lengthy international record of success that pre-dates his time in college, including spending an entire year at the OTC working nothing but Free. He also doesn't train for American Folk anymore and hasn't for years.

 

My overall point was this. The freestylers who go on to try folk are typically the elite level freestylers. I would absolutely expect them to be successful.

 

Folkstylers that try freestyle are not always elite level, so you're going to see a broad range of results. In your earlier statement you said, let's only use the elite level wrestlers. This is why I cherry picked Burroughs, Stieber, and Snyder. I DONT think this it's a valid argument, it's me using imo a similar logic that you used in your argument of only going by elite results.

 

In some cases, yes. In most cases, no.

 

Neither Abdurakhmanov brother was on the Uzbek Senior National Team prior to becoming All-Americans in the NJCAA or NCAA.

 

Sonny Abe wasn't the Japanese rep until 1995, following his third year at Penn State, where he had already finished fourth, third and second.

 

Neither Turtogtokh Luvsandorj or Ugi Khishignyam have been Mongolia's top guy before or after their time at the Citadel. In fact, I don't think that Khishignyam competes anymore, but I could be wrong.

 

There are numerous other instances, but the point being that these guys aren't always the best guys in their own countries, let alone on the world stage. Yet they come here with one facet of the American Folk game (feet, top and bottom) and are instantly among the best guys out there, even if they aren't national champs.

 

Furthermore, it's generally considered more difficult to win the Olympics or a world title than an NCAA title correct? How many of these guys were Division 1 NCAA champions mentioned here? There have been countless American World and Olympic Champions..

 

It's not about if they won titles here, rather that the foreign guys were contenders almost immediately with only the ability to take guys down from the feet.

 

IMO there's not enough data to prove the freestyle to folkstyle translates to better results than vice versa. Im of the opinion that its inconclusive, youre of the opinion thats its definitive. Lets agree to disagree, Fair enough?

 

Correct, sir, we will agree to disagree.

 

As for what this thread is about, I think I would know what it's about considering the fact that I created it.

 

You may have created the thread, but you modified the argument as it went along. I am going with the initial idea that foreign wrestlers are more successful in American Folk right away (even though they really are not very good at mat wrestling) than American wrestlers are in Freestyle right away.

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You may have created the thread, but you modified the argument as it went along. I am going with the initial idea that foreign wrestlers are more successful in American Folk right away (even though they really are not very good at mat wrestling) than American wrestlers are in Freestyle right away.

 

The initial idea of the thread was NEVER foreign wrestlers are more successful in Folk right away. The post was simply to start a discussion on who are some wrestlers that did well in Folk, who's first style was Free. I NEVER modified any argument because the post was NEVER an insinuation that one style produced better results than the other.

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