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cangemi

They should wait a day to wrestle finals

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Well another way to do this is that no one is protected, and everyone is thrown into the World team mini tourney, and the two finalists go the best two out of three.

Or perhaps we send the top 8 in each weight to a training camp, and they just have to battle it out.

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what's wrong with having proven world medalists get a bye. Fact is that is likely a better indicator of success at that level, then a best of 3 series, especially if they are gameplanning to take out the world medalists. If you have the finals on another day so they are fully rested after 2 or 3 matches ( which would not be a good indicator that they could go thru worlds), should the challenger win, you need to enter them both into a tough international tournament like they've done in the past, to prove we have our best possible team. If you can beat the best guys in the us, though, then knock someone off in a 2 of 3 series, who is fresh, that shows a lot more then wrestling on a separate day.

Edited by maolsen

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If they wrestle the final the next day, doesn't that mean making weight 2 days in a row for the winner of the mini tournament?

 

I have no problem with the format now.

 

That's a good point.  I wonder what the wrestlers would prefer, getting a day to recover but having to make weight again, or going right into the finals against a fresh opponent.

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There is absolutely no justification for the current qualifying system. None. Tell you what. Can someone please point to an equivalent qualifying system in the modern Olympic era where a direct physical disadvantage is imposed on one competitor? This is likely the worst qualifying system in Olympic history. The only thing I can think of that would be worse would be just nomination by committee. No other nation does this. Attempts to rationalize this seem laughable. These matches are often decided by the narrowest of margins. The idea that you are left to wonder if the outcome is completely fair or if fatigue became a factor is a cheat, a disservice to fans and competitors. You can point to any outlier you want. Bottom line is that we have a system that imposes a physical disadvantage on one competitor while also tilting towards a deserved outcome. The NCAA does not have an difficulty waiting one day. 

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There is absolutely no justification for the current qualifying system. None. Tell you what. Can someone please point to an equivalent qualifying system in the modern Olympic era where a direct physical disadvantage is imposed on one competitor? This is likely the worst qualifying system in Olympic history. The only thing I can think of that would be worse would be just nomination by committee. No other nation does this. Attempts to rationalize this seem laughable. These matches are often decided by the narrowest of margins. The idea that you are left to wonder if the outcome is completely fair or if fatigue became a factor is a cheat, a disservice to fans and competitors. You can point to any outlier you want. Bottom line is that we have a system that imposes a physical disadvantage on one competitor while also tilting towards a deserved outcome. The NCAA does not have an difficulty waiting one day. 

You sir are 100% correct. Ive said it before and I will say it again. You can point to whatever outlier you want, it doesnt matter. You can be a dumb **** and say, JB won, live with it. Go on and on. Does the system we have now give us the best wrestler? Probably. Does it put the challenge winner at a MAJOR disadvantage? Absolutely!

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zain was able to do it.

gilman was able to do it.

i actually think it hurts JB. he needs that warmup match.

just look at the end of his first match coming back to tie it.

 

if Dake would attack he would have a better chance.

Hurts JB? How much would him having to win the challenge tourney have hurt against a sitting Dake? I bet a LOT.

 

If they really want to be like the Russians then be like them and just pick the team. Pick them. Better than this system.

Edited by TBar1977

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zain and gilman won. live with it.

 

JB needs that tune up Tbar

and that's exactly what i am saying. Dake fans would be telling all the JB fans that they are just whiners if Dake had won at the open and gotten the bye.

i dont see what the problem is.

Dake is a top level athlete. and took 1 shot, 1 (all day no less), before he was behind against burroughs in second match.

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zain and gilman won. live with it.

 

JB needs that tune up Tbar

and that's exactly what i am saying. Dake fans would be telling all the JB fans that they are just whiners if Dake had won at the open and gotten the bye.

i dont see what the problem is.

Dake is a top level athlete. and took 1 shot, 1 (all day no less), before he was behind against burroughs in second match.

No way. I have been railing against this system forever. Before the Taylor/Cox matches I made a point that the tough match Taylor had in the challenge final would affect the result with Cox, especially if it went to a third match. Did it? The point is we should not have to ask. When Dake lost to Cox I was not thrilled with him having to move up that much but I accepted that it was a fair match.Without belaboring this, these matches are decided on a razor's edge. Either pick by committee or make the competition as fair as possible.   

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if they wrestled the next day then the whiners would have to come up with an entirely new excuse... that would be equally exhausting

 

dake whined about the mini tourney... guess what? he always lost after it...

 

gilman said he has been training for the best in the world and went and handled his business...

 

might be something too that mentality, huh?

or the fact that Jordan burroughs is a lot better than tony ramos is.

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Well another way to do this is that no one is protected, and everyone is thrown into the World team mini tourney, and the two finalists go the best two out of three.

Or perhaps we send the top 8 in each weight to a training camp, and they just have to battle it out.

At 163 we already had a US Open where they're all thrown into a tournament and nobody is protected.  Then all the losers of that tournament get another chance to beat the guy they didn't beat that day.  And somehow Burroughs winning twice (and once with an advantage) is too unfair to the guys who got beat twice in two different formats?

 

If Taylor wants to complain that it's unfair for Cox to sit out 2017 and show up with a Bye based on 2016 results, then you've got a serious argument.  But Dake had equal access to the spot that Burroughs did.  So move on from complaining about the qualifying system on Dake's behalf.  

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Why would wrestling 24 hours later vs 5 hours later be so much better? Have any of you arguing this ever wrestled at an elite level? In my experience there are very few elite wrestlers who are not fully recovered 5 hours after a match. Can anyone provide any evidence that a full recovery is not possible in that amount of time? I know it is sufficient time to recover from fatigue and to fully digest a healthy meal to replenish energy and rehydrate. The next day you wake up all sore and actually feel worse, which doesn't affect performance, but I just don't see why everyone thinks it would make such a big difference??

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At 163 we already had a US Open where they're all thrown into a tournament and nobody is protected.  Then all the losers of that tournament get another chance to beat the guy they didn't beat that day.  And somehow Burroughs winning twice (and once with an advantage) is too unfair to the guys who got beat twice in two different formats?

 

If Taylor wants to complain that it's unfair for Cox to sit out 2017 and show up with a Bye based on 2016 results, then you've got a serious argument.  But Dake had equal access to the spot that Burroughs did.  So move on from complaining about the qualifying system on Dake's behalf.  

And Dake outwrestled him. Two pushouts to one. Oh and multiple passivity calls that went against guess who? I know I get accused of conspiracizing but go look at the comments from that match; people do not have difficulty seeing the favoritism. Even Burrough's fans on here admitted that Burroughs was getting the champion's preference in the calls. I always come back to this, but when you create a system that is primarily about spot protection, everyone within it know who the powers that be are pulling for. US Wrestling wants Burroughs because as a second-rate wrestling power they want to maximize their medal chances. Burroughs is still the golden boy. People can say "but what about" all they want. I think the impulse in US wrestling's quest for crumbs to protect Burrough's spot is tremendous.

 

All that said, maybe Burroughs is just better. Although he certainly did not show it the one and only time it was a square match. Even so we have a third-rate qualifying system and all the corrupting influences it exerts.   

 

There is no argument. Either admit this is about protecting spots and choose by committee or do away with the sham competition and have a fair tournament.  

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If they wrestle the final the next day, doesn't that mean making weight 2 days in a row for the winner of the mini tournament?

 

I have no problem with the format now.

Maybe the incumbent should have to make weight two days in a row too?

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And Dake outwrestled him. Two pushouts to one. Oh and multiple passivity calls that went against guess who? I know I get accused of conspiracizing but go look at the comments from that match; people do not have difficulty seeing the favoritism. Even Burrough's fans on here admitted that Burroughs was getting the champion's preference in the calls. I always come back to this, but when you create a system that is primarily about spot protection, everyone within it know who the powers that be are pulling for. US Wrestling wants Burroughs because as a second-rate wrestling power they want to maximize their medal chances. Burroughs is still the golden boy. People can say "but what about" all they want. I think the impulse in US wrestling's quest for crumbs to protect Burrough's spot is tremendous.

 

All that said, maybe Burroughs is just better. Although he certainly did not show it the one and only time it was a square match. Even so we have a third-rate qualifying system and all the corrupting influences it exerts.   

 

There is no argument. Either admit this is about protecting spots and choose by committee or do away with the sham competition and have a fair tournament.  

If USA wrestling cheated Dake in a no advantage situation, then why are you complaining about the trials and asking for a no advantage situation (the exact situation that Burroughs already won/cheated in)?  

 

If your complaint is about reffing than complain about it.  But the system Dake wrestled in was entirely fair and even gave him a chance to overcome his first loss (or the first time he got cheated if you prefer).  

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