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cangemi

They should wait a day to wrestle finals

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The whole idea of it is it is not supposed to be "fair".  It was adopted to reward the prior year world placewinner an "advantage"and also to make the US OPEN a tournament with some importance.

 

First we hear he "coasted" thru Imar and Ringer and saved all this energy

 

Then when that didnt fit the outcome, then Burroughs is dirty wrestler, its the USAW fault for same day finals. then because Burroughs said he knows when he gets a call [of course he is never on the receiving end of a bad call]  just give the champion a bye not a freebie to finals..... on and on........

 

all just excuses...  

 

If the champ gets a bye and then an opponent injury next round .... then we would hear more same lame excuses

10 more seconds in the first match and he would of lost that one too

I dont think he can go hard for 6 minutes freestyle match..maybe he wasnt coasting... maybe recovering from first period

 

If he doesnt like the way our rules are, I wish  he do like others and go to another country and compete for them..  I wasnt going to root for him anyways.

Take his whiny ass coach with him..who never seemed to have a problem with officials when Realbuto got a "gift"

Edited by tbert

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And Dake outwrestled him. Two pushouts to one. Oh and multiple passivity calls that went against guess who? I know I get accused of conspiracizing but go look at the comments from that match; people do not have difficulty seeing the favoritism. Even Burrough's fans on here admitted that Burroughs was getting the champion's preference in the calls. I always come back to this, but when you create a system that is primarily about spot protection, everyone within it know who the powers that be are pulling for. US Wrestling wants Burroughs because as a second-rate wrestling power they want to maximize their medal chances. Burroughs is still the golden boy. People can say "but what about" all they want. I think the impulse in US wrestling's quest for crumbs to protect Burrough's spot is tremendous.

 

All that said, maybe Burroughs is just better. Although he certainly did not show it the one and only time it was a square match. Even so we have a third-rate qualifying system and all the corrupting influences it exerts.   

 

There is no argument. Either admit this is about protecting spots and choose by committee or do away with the sham competition and have a fair tournament.  

Ya think?

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Ya think?

Hard to say. They have only wrestled once on a level playing field and Dake outwrestled him. The idea that the challenge tournament being wrestled the same day as the best of three is not a serious disadvantage is denial. Dake had to wrestle Imar and Ringer. He is exerting energy, and eventually fatigue is going to set in, your step is going to be that slight degree slower. The athletes cannot speak up for themselves because they get attacked for "whining" and "excuses." Well this is just plain old reality. You cannot have it both ways, claiming that the system is designed to give the incumbent a tangible advantage but then say "stop making excuses" when an athlete comes up just short going uphill in a very competitive series of matches.      

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Hard to say. They have only wrestled once on a level playing field and Dake outwrestled him. The idea that the challenge tournament being wrestled the same day as the best of three is not a serious disadvantage is denial. Dake had to wrestle Imar and Ringer. He is exerting energy, and eventually fatigue is going to set in, your step is going to be that slight degree slower. The athletes cannot speak up for themselves because they get attacked for "whining" and "excuses." Well this is just plain old reality. You cannot have it both ways, claiming that the system is designed to give the incumbent a tangible advantage but then say "stop making excuses" when an athlete comes up just short going uphill in a very competitive series of matches.      

Of course it's an advantage.  That is why anyone who gets the bye based on previous year's finish has an unfair edge.  Whether it's good for the USA is up for debate.  Cox was great in 2016 but we don't know if he's better than Taylor right now.  The bye means he doesn't have to be better, he just has to hold him off.  I don't mind the advantage for returning medalists, but it's definitely a slanted field.

 

This is why Dake went up to 86.  He didn't think he had a fair chance at beating Burroughs at 74 when Burroughs was a medalist.  

 

But when there is no medalist, it is beyond fair to everyone.  First you get a chance to win in April on a level field.  Then even after you lose, you get a 2nd chance with a slight disadvantage.  It would be ridiculous if swimmers got a head start in 2 out of 3 at the trials, but if they all raced equal first and then the winner had to defend his spot a month later with a head start, then it would be fair, as everyone got a chance at the head start.  Making you win twice in two different formats helps guarantee the best wrestler.  

 

Burroughs won in both situations.  If you don't like the way the four matches were officiated that is a different argument, but the system was 100% fair at 74 kilos.

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Why would wrestling 24 hours later vs 5 hours later be so much better? Have any of you arguing this ever wrestled at an elite level? In my experience there are very few elite wrestlers who are not fully recovered 5 hours after a match. Can anyone provide any evidence that a full recovery is not possible in that amount of time? I know it is sufficient time to recover from fatigue and to fully digest a healthy meal to replenish energy and rehydrate. The next day you wake up all sore and actually feel worse, which doesn't affect performance, but I just don't see why everyone thinks it would make such a big difference??

I would still like to hear an answer to this question...

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I would still like to hear an answer to this question...

Getting people on this forum to admit they have no experience in what they are clearly experts about is fruitless. Either that, or they are all high level athletes and high level officials, while we are at it, and feel no need to dignify your question with a response.

Edited by steen-hooph

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Of course it's an advantage.  That is why anyone who gets the bye based on previous year's finish has an unfair edge.  Whether it's good for the USA is up for debate.  Cox was great in 2016 but we don't know if he's better than Taylor right now.  The bye means he doesn't have to be better, he just has to hold him off.  I don't mind the advantage for returning medalists, but it's definitely a slanted field.

 

This is why Dake went up to 86.  He didn't think he had a fair chance at beating Burroughs at 74 when Burroughs was a medalist.  

 

But when there is no medalist, it is beyond fair to everyone.  First you get a chance to win in April on a level field.  Then even after you lose, you get a 2nd chance with a slight disadvantage.  It would be ridiculous if swimmers got a head start in 2 out of 3 at the trials, but if they all raced equal first and then the winner had to defend his spot a month later with a head start, then it would be fair, as everyone got a chance at the head start.  Making you win twice in two different formats helps guarantee the best wrestler.  

 

Burroughs won in both situations.  If you don't like the way the four matches were officiated that is a different argument, but the system was 100% fair at 74 kilos.

Except Burroughs lost in April. At the least there should not be a bye unless one of the competitors is a defending medalist. Dake got screwed twice at the Open. 

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I feel bad for Kyle..just can't quite figure out how to beat someone who is a better wrestler than him..

Please donate. http://www.kyledake.com/blog-c5nc

 This is from the blog.  Is it me or is something wrong here?

 

Jan. 12, 2017

He went on to become a world team member after graduation in 2013, as well as in 2015 and 2016

despite several injuries to his foot, hand, and shoulder that kept him out of last year’s Olympic trials.

Edited by KCMO2

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This is from the blog. Is it me or is something wrong here?

 

Jan. 12, 2017

He went on to become a world team member after graduation in 2013, as well as in 2015 and 2016

despite several injuries to his foot, hand, and shoulder that kept him out of last year’s Olympic trials.

Lol...kind of embellishes slightly the facts.

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Except Burroughs lost in April. At the least there should not be a bye unless one of the competitors is a defending medalist. Dake got screwed twice at the Open. 

So you want to build the rules of the qualification system around helping guys who lost the Open but really won?  Why not just focus on the refereeing which is your real issue?  Fix that and the system was perfect at 74.

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So you want to build the rules of the qualification system around helping guys who lost the Open but really won?  Why not just focus on the refereeing which is your real issue?  Fix that and the system was perfect at 74.

In freestsyle officiating is always going to be an issue because the rules are so subjective and the ref can decide the match virtually every time. You are always going to have naked Mongolians or guys freaking out like Cox's opponent in the Bronze medal match. That is very hard to fix. A guy like Burroughs will get favorable calls as he clearly did in the Open to the point where he admitted it. I think the criticism of how that match was officiated was so loud (go look at the YT video of that match and the comments) that to its credit the best of three at the trials was much better officiated.

 

Unfortunately Dake getting jobbed at the Open had a massive result, which is likely why he got jobbed. I cannot fix the rules, the subjectivity, the favoritism and spot protection, but fixing a ridiculously unfair qualifying system is certainly doable.

 

Even the most ardent Burroughs fans admitted he got a gift at the Open. But as someone who did not even place at Rio that should not have led to a bye.    

Edited by straggler

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Straggler

 

The only real problem I have with your argument in all this is that you only seem to focus on the perspective of Kyle Dake. If there really is a conspiracy going on or a major problem you should be able to apply it to some of the other weight classes to warrant a change in the format. Why isn't the challenge tournament an issue for someone like Kendric Maple? He was a squeaker away from winning his first match against Stieber before getting whooped in the 2nd match. It could be argued that the challenge tournament was the reason he dropped the first match.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of the format, but IMO your argument would hold a lot more weight if you were able to apply it to more cases other than Dake/Burroughs with just as much passion.

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In freestsyle officiating is always going to be an issue because the rules are so subjective and the ref can decide the match virtually every time. You are always going to have naked Mongolians or guys freaking out like Cox's opponent in the Bronze medal match. That is very hard to fix. A guy like Burroughs will get favorable calls as he clearly did in the Open to the point where he admitted it. I think the criticism of how that match was officiated was so loud (go look at the YT video of that match and the comments) that to its credit the best of three at the trials was much better officiated.

 

Unfortunately Dake getting jobbed at the Open had a massive result, which is likely why he got jobbed. I cannot fix the rules, the subjectivity, the favoritism and spot protection, but fixing a ridiculously unfair qualifying system is certainly doable.

 

Even the most ardent Burroughs fans admitted he got a gift at the Open. But as someone who did not even place at Rio that should not have led to a bye.

 

I am an ardent JB fan and I know he won the Open fair and square. This system gives unproven wrestlers the opportunity to prove their mettle. Some prove it and some don't.

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I am an ardent JB fan and I know he won the Open fair and square. This system gives unproven wrestlers the opportunity to prove their mettle. Some prove it and some don't.

Many people who have watched that match don't agree. I just wonder if the bye was not at stake if the calls would have been similar. And to be clear I am not arguing a conspiracy or match fixing. But you got to admit the system domestically is to maximize the chances of former medalists to make the team. Call it getting a champion's decision like in boxing.

 

 Whether you think Burroughs won at the Open fair and square or got a gift, that match was so close that to have a bye at the trials is a shame. I'm all for proving mettle. But I'm not going to call an uneven playing field fair either. The qualifying system we have leaves a huge question mark when you have a very competitive series. It is uncalled for.    

Edited by straggler

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Straggler

 

The only real problem I have with your argument in all this is that you only seem to focus on the perspective of Kyle Dake. If there really is a conspiracy going on or a major problem you should be able to apply it to some of the other weight classes to warrant a change in the format. Why isn't the challenge tournament an issue for someone like Kendric Maple? He was a squeaker away from winning his first match against Stieber before getting whooped in the 2nd match. It could be argued that the challenge tournament was the reason he dropped the first match.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of the format, but IMO your argument would hold a lot more weight if you were able to apply it to more cases other than Dake/Burroughs with just as much passion.

I don't think there is a conspiracy. But the system we have does place an emphasis on protecting the spot of former place winners/medalists. It instills favoritism imho. 

 

The Dake/Burroughs matches are the most prominent example because of who it involves. It is fascinating because it involves trying to unseat Burroughs and in other circumstances Dake is clearly good enough to make the world team. And guilty as charged that I have been a big Dake fan. But what drives the passion this time out is how competitive these two have been this year. It is thisclose.Some of the challengers did pull it off this time out, but none of them had nearly as big a challenge. I think the format affects all the athletes. It did no favors to Taylor for example, although that series had a bit of everything. 

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I don't think there is a conspiracy. But the system we have does place an emphasis on protecting the spot of former place winners/medalists. It instills favoritism imho.

 

The Dake/Burroughs matches are the most prominent example because of who it involves. It is fascinating because it involves trying to unseat Burroughs and in other circumstances Dake is clearly good enough to make the world team. And guilty as charged that I have been a big Dake fan. But what drives the passion this time out is how competitive these two have been this year. It is thisclose.Some of the challengers did pull it off this time out, but none of them had nearly as big a challenge. I think the format affects all the athletes. It did no favors to Taylor for example, although that series had a bit of everything.

 

Again I dont think your opinion is completely wrong. My point is use some more examples to support your statement otherwise is simply comes off as a grip session that Dake lost. I was also using Kendric Maple to help you support your case. He did almost pull off a win against the defending world champ, only to lose in the last few seconds. Surely it's At least arguable that going through the challenge tournament fatigued him enough to At least hamper his chance of winning that first match... Edited by BigTenFanboy

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I don't think there is a conspiracy. But the system we have does place an emphasis on protecting the spot of former place winners/medalists. It instills favoritism imho. 

 

The Dake/Burroughs matches are the most prominent example because of who it involves. It is fascinating because it involves trying to unseat Burroughs and in other circumstances Dake is clearly good enough to make the world team. And guilty as charged that I have been a big Dake fan. But what drives the passion this time out is how competitive these two have been this year. It is thisclose.Some of the challengers did pull it off this time out, but none of them had nearly as big a challenge. I think the format affects all the athletes. It did no favors to Taylor for example, although that series had a bit of everything.

 

Zain had nearly as big of a challenge as Taylor. Molinaro wrestled in the bronze medal match and was inches away from scoring the winning takedown. Taylor was simply outwrestled. So was Dake.

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Crazy,

 

Have a guy wrestle 3 full matches then come to wrestle three more. Let them break and have the finals the next day to have our best representative. Just seems so skewed to the guy waiting.

 

Give them the bye to finals, wrestle finals next day! Just my opinion. Dake was dead in the last match, too big a advantage

to overcome on a world champ! Needs to be fair play! 

 

 

Frank C

 

I can agree that it is more fair, but not a big deal to me.  Ask Gilman and Zain.  Maple blew it first match.  DT didn't lose because he was tired.  Not a big deal to me. 

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