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cangemi

They should wait a day to wrestle finals

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LJB is a troll looking to evoke a response from those who understand the obvious unfairness of the current system.  We are all just a bunch of liberal whiners.  He's just taking time out of his busy schedule trolling political websites.

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Because it is physically impossible to recover from a day of wrestling in 5 hours. You cannot replenish glycogen that quickly, for starters, not to speak of general systemic fatigue and mental fatigue.

This sounds good in theory, but there are several problems here. First, it can't be physically impossible to recover since wrestlers have been doing it since forever. We alway compete with low glycogen stores due to making weight. I am quite certain that making weight for a second day would result in lower glycogen levels than if they just wrestled later in the same day. Secondly, if we were to operate under the premise that the athlete is not cutting weight and has full glycogen stores at the beginning of the day, then he should have plenty remaining to wrestle the finals the same day. The body can store up to 2000 calories in glycogen. Even the most intense physical activities only burn about 1000 calories per hour. So that's about 120 minutes of wrestling, or 20 matches, to burn all that energy up. As tbert said we are talking about 12 minutes. No excuses for Dake and Taylor.

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Folks keep talking about 12 minutes. I propose it is much longer. There are the warm ups, staying loose and the mental focus that is needed for each match. Basically the stress of the day.

 

On the other hand, I do think a second day weigh in for one wrestler is also tough.

 

After reading many of these posts, I do still fall on the side of removing this degree of advantage. It was even more brutal for Juniors. Some had huge brackets to get to the finals.

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This sounds good in theory, but there are several problems here. First, it can't be physically impossible to recover since wrestlers have been doing it since forever. We alway compete with low glycogen stores due to making weight. I am quite certain that making weight for a second day would result in lower glycogen levels than if they just wrestled later in the same day. Secondly, if we were to operate under the premise that the athlete is not cutting weight and has full glycogen stores at the beginning of the day, then he should have plenty remaining to wrestle the finals the same day. The body can store up to 2000 calories in glycogen. Even the most intense physical activities only burn about 1000 calories per hour. So that's about 120 minutes of wrestling, or 20 matches, to burn all that energy up. As tbert said we are talking about 12 minutes. No excuses for Dake and Taylor.

Not trying to be argumentative, but you're wrong on several levels.

 

There are degrees of recovery. It's not binary, black or white. Of course, even 60 seconds of rest provides some recovery... the question is really about a fully recovered top-seeded guy facing a partially-recovered guy, which is obviously not a physically fair competition. It is impossible to recover even close to fully in 5 hours from a day of several matches. That's just a fact. You can argue semantics, but whoever is rested is bestowed a significant edge.

 

Always competing with low glycogen levels due to making weight. False. Day before weighins allow full recovery of glycogen stores. The average man can store in the order of 2000 calories of glycogen in the muscles and liver. 18ish hours is plenty of time to metabolize that.

 

Finally, your math is off because glycogen stores are exhausted and replenished very regularly. Just keeping the body alive even in a sedentary state uses up a substantial portion of the glycogen stores, which get replenished daily.

 

Furthermore, there is hte issue of systemic and muscular fatigue. (Not to mention mental fatigue, which IS a thing.) You cannot exert maximal or near-maximal (high intensity) effort constantly even with enough intra-day rest intervals. This is why powerlifters peak for ONE lift for weeks and then deload before beginning a new mesocycle of training. Wrestling 3 or 5 matches before the best of 3 substantially taxes the muscles and CNS. It is a significant disadvantage. It is absolutely not true that after a 5 hour break from a full day of wrestling, anyone is at 100%.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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i have seen several comments on how dirty JB has become.

 

I have been watching last years OTT and just saw Dake push Cox almost off the stage in the 3rd match with his leg in a high single.

 

then dake promptly whined that cox was running from him.

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i have seen several comments on how dirty JB has become.

 

I have been watching last years OTT and just saw Dake push Cox almost off the stage in the 3rd match with his leg in a high single.

 

then dake promptly whined that cox was running from him.

That's pretty much what Dake supporters do. Get used to it..gets worse than that.

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So the real question is whether or not the Final Trials is a stand alone event or the culmination of a series of events to select the team.  As a stand alone, there should be a more even playing field. As a culmination the whole purpose is to give those who might have just been "off" physically, mentally, whatever, a second or even a third chance while rewarding the athlete who has outdistanced the field during the entire process. (placed in Worlds or Olympics or won Nationals).

 

If we were going to pick the team based on having a strict even playing field, why bother with the final trials?  Just bring the National Champion.  

 

Apologies if I am making a case that has already been made.  Came late to this party and didn't have time to wade through all the pages.

Edited by bill_crum

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Not trying to be argumentative, but you're wrong on several levels.

 

There are degrees of recovery. It's not binary, black or white. Of course, even 60 seconds of rest provides some recovery... the question is really about a fully recovered top-seeded guy facing a partially-recovered guy, which is obviously not a physically fair competition. It is impossible to recover even close to fully in 5 hours from a day of several matches. That's just a fact. You can argue semantics, but whoever is rested is bestowed a significant edge.

 

Always competing with low glycogen levels due to making weight. False. Day before weighins allow full recovery of glycogen stores. The average man can store in the order of 2000 calories of glycogen in the muscles and liver. 18ish hours is plenty of time to metabolize that.

 

Finally, your math is off because glycogen stores are exhausted and replenished very regularly. Just keeping the body alive even in a sedentary state uses up a substantial portion of the glycogen stores, which get replenished daily.

 

Furthermore, there is hte issue of systemic and muscular fatigue. (Not to mention mental fatigue, which IS a thing.) You cannot exert maximal or near-maximal (high intensity) effort constantly even with enough intra-day rest intervals. This is why powerlifters peak for ONE lift for weeks and then deload before beginning a new mesocycle of training. Wrestling 3 or 5 matches before the best of 3 substantially taxes the muscles and CNS. It is a significant disadvantage. It is absolutely not true that after a 5 hour break from a full day of wrestling, anyone is at 100%.

 

First, I will admit that it has been a while since I studied this stuff, but I thought glycogen is typically used as an energy reserve for intense exercise? So if we assume that wrestlers would have full glycogen storage at the beginning of the day, would it really be depleted after 5 or 6 matches over the course of the whole day? As you mentioned, it is exhausted and replenished regularly. Wouldn't the food you are eating throughout the day provide you with energy, and therefore you would not use all of your 2000 calories of glycogen? I am not a scientist, but I can tell you for a fact that I never felt more fatigued on my 5th match of the day as long as I had about 1-2 hours break. 3 hours + would easily seem like a full recovery can be made. You can say the guy I was wrestling was fatigued as well so I didn't notice, but the guys also got tougher as you advanced in the bracket. You would think more wrestlers would show signs of wrestling poorly at the end of the day. Watch the finals of any big tournament and you will see plenty of wrestler that don't look like they are fatigued one bit. I am not trying to argue either...I just think it seems like either wrestlers are defying science or there is something we are missing. I would really like to see a scientific study done on this in wrestlers, but that will probably never happen!

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So the real question is whether or not the Final Trials is a stand alone event or the culmination of a series of events to select the team.  As a stand alone, there should be a more even playing field. As a culmination the whole purpose is to give those who might have just been "off" physically, mentally, whatever, a second or even a third chance while rewarding the athlete who has outdistanced the field during the entire process. (placed in Worlds or Olympics or won Nationals).

 

If we were going to pick the team based on having a strict even playing field, why bother with the final trials?  Just bring the National Champion.  

 

Apologies if I am making a case that has already been made.  Came late to this party and didn't have time to wade through all the pages.

 

These are all great questions, and I could get behind any of those options. The main point I am trying to get across is that I don't think the current system is as big as an advantage as some are saying. I would still be fine with a completely separate event for the finals. 

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I say this half in jest, but after reading some of the responses maybe they should make this the official site for US Gymnastics too given how people can twist themselves into pretzels trying to justify the status quo. It is a physical disadvantage that should have no place in a competitive sport. Glad a couple of guys bucked the trend this year and finally won out of the challenge tournament, but it remains an unfair disadvantage unlike anything I have seen in the entire spectrum of Olympic sports. People are free to quantify to what degree it affects the outcome, but in a close march it is more than likely going to tell, and that probability will increase the deeper into the best of three the finals go. Needs to be changed. 

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I say this half in jest, but after reading some of the responses maybe they should make this the official site for US Gymnastics too given how people can twist themselves into pretzels trying to justify the status quo. It is a physical disadvantage that should have no place in a competitive sport. Glad a couple of guys bucked the trend this year and finally won out of the challenge tournament, but it remains an unfair disadvantage unlike anything I have seen in the entire spectrum of Olympic sports. People are free to quantify to what degree it affects the outcome, but in a close march it is more than likely going to tell, and that probability will increase the deeper into the best of three the finals go. Needs to be changed. 

What if they just made the US Open winner the representative?

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