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Kyle Dake/David Taylor WTTs... Objective vs Subjective Scoring

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One of the things that stands out to me in Freestyle wrestling is how much matches depend on subjective points being awarded. With the recent matches of Dake vs Burroughs and Taylor vs Cox there have been a lot of people upset with how matches were officiated. I was rooting for both Dake and Taylor to win the World Team spots, but neither pulled it off. At the same time I really cant cry foul on either due to the lack of Objective points being scored by either wrestler, especially in Match 3 of their series.

 

There has been several threads saying that they were screwed, this that and the other. Dake wasn't awarded points due to a No call when Burroughs hand hit Dake in the head. Taylor wasn't awarded a caution when he was pushing Cox and Cox was simply sliding backwards several feet. While I do agree that according to the current freestye rules, points "could" have been award to both Dake and Taylor, I am hard pressed to really rely on those types of points because it "could" be argued that the right calls were made.

 

Maybe its the Folkstyle in me, but I will only feel upset over points not being awarded if there were Takedowns, Push Outs, or Back Exposures that took place but weren't awarded. Judgement calls like passivity's, cautions, and things of the sort are opinions of the officials and IMO are artificial points. They also will differ from ref to ref.

 

IMO this played a big role in Taylor/Cox match 3 after the Cox' injury. Taylor seemed to be looking for subjective points to be award and in the midst of all the flurry he gave up Objective points to Cox with his step out. Its arguable that Taylor deserved stalling points, its not arguable that Cox be awarded a point of the step out. The step out took place which is a factual objective occurrence thus the point was awarded. I'm a big Taylor fan, but I cant really complain that he or Dake both lost match 3 when neither scored enough objective points.

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Was actually just thinking about starting a thread on this...

 

I think it stems from something we see in the professional sports. Fans, and even players in the NBA and NFL are always looking for penalties or fouls and whining regardless of its on them, or they don't get a call. IMO it doesn't help when the unions come out now after the game and admit that a call was missed. All that does is give more fuel to the fire. Everyone should know that calls are going to get missed, or occasionally the wrong call, not saying this should happen, but unless we want to remove the human factor and review every single play of the entire game, just play the game and do the best the officials can do.

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Was actually just thinking about starting a thread on this...

 

I think it stems from something we see in the professional sports. Fans, and even players in the NBA and NFL are always looking for penalties or fouls and whining regardless of its on them, or they don't get a call. IMO it doesn't help when the unions come out now after the game and admit that a call was missed. All that does is give more fuel to the fire. Everyone should know that calls are going to get missed, or occasionally the wrong call, not saying this should happen, but unless we want to remove the human factor and review every single play of the entire game, just play the game and do the best the officials can do.

 

The use of Video review in wrestling seems to only be for Objective calls.

Has there ever been a case where a passivity or stalling call was made due a the video review? 

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Was actually just thinking about starting a thread on this...

 

I think it stems from something we see in the professional sports. Fans, and even players in the NBA and NFL are always looking for penalties or fouls and whining regardless of its on them, or they don't get a call. IMO it doesn't help when the unions come out now after the game and admit that a call was missed. All that does is give more fuel to the fire. Everyone should know that calls are going to get missed, or occasionally the wrong call, not saying this should happen, but unless we want to remove the human factor and review every single play of the entire game, just play the game and do the best the officials can do.

Is it just ,me or are penalties ruining the NFL? 

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I was rewatching some of the matches, specifically JB vs Dake's, and I walked away with the same impression: IF Dake decided to wrestle more rather than look for calls against JB, it would have been a lot closer, and (and it hurts to say it since I'm big on JB) possibly been more in Dake's favor. We know he has the firepower to take JB down, we also know his defense is on point. I really don't understand why he shuts down in the second period of all his matches; in the challenge tourney it makes sense to conserve energy, but he had no answer for JB in each of their 2nd periods. That is on him.

 

Also, for much of the discussion raised on JB's handfighting style (which can be dirty and should be warned as such), I don't see anyone raising a voice about Gilman's handfighting, where he literally winds up to club people. That, to me, was very much more apparent and just as bad imo.

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These non-calls bug the crap out of me for the following reasons:

 

1. Getting fore-head stumped or eye poked is very painful, especially if, like many wrestlers, you have old neck injuries

2. It deters the eye-pokee/forehead stumpee from being aggressive

3. It makes for  CLEAR advantage to the head stumper/eye-poker

4. It LOOKS like not calling them shows Favoritism

5. ITS AGAINST THE FRIGGIN' RULES

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I did not have any major issues with the officiating in the Dake/Burroughs matches this time out. Dake had the lead until about 30 seconds left in the second half of the second match. Burroughs did some rough housing but for the most part it was not over the top. The main issue was the format, again. The only scoring issue was whether it was a 2 point takedown or a 4 point takedown + exposure in the second match and it seemed like a defensible call. The damage as far as officiating was done at the US Open, which was a travesty imho. Dake was showing a lot of concern about being hit with passivity calls based on the Open and it probably affected why he did not start fleeing at the end of the second match. But as to the trials this was the first time since 2012 that I thought the officiating at least was evenhanded.

 

As to Taylor/Cox, I definitely think Taylor has legitimate gripes with the calls. They were slip sliding all over the mat, Cox was backing up constantly. There should have been some passivity/fleeing calls. But Taylor also had his chances.  

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alliseeisbronze

onpoint.

 

in the one match..dake was relentless and i was really worried he was going to put JB away...

but that was the only time up to that point that he really wrestled.

 

i think he is worried about playing offense AND defense...adn that opening up will allow JB to exploit a mistake...

but i sure didn't see many openings during that sequence...

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straggler

he didn't show much concern in the 2nd period of any of the 3 matches...

he underhooked/blocked/head down. constantly.

and in the first match didn't get a SINGLE passivity. blocking for 3 minutes.

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straggler

he didn't show much concern in the 2nd period of any of the 3 matches...

he underhooked/blocked/head down. constantly.

and in the first match didn't get a SINGLE passivity. blocking for 3 minutes.

Because in the first two matches he had a lead. He was up 3-1 with about 35 seconds left in the second match. He should have tried to run like hell at that point but he would have been hit for passivity/fleeing in a microsecond. After Burroughs scored the 4 points Dake got the point on the pushout/near takedown and then almost got the turn in the final seconds. The third match was all about exhaustion.

 

He did not deserve any passivity calls in the first match. He was active and holding the center and never put his hand down once.   

Edited by straggler

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One thing on the Cox Taylor match is that you can also make a pretty good argument that Cox should have had 4 not 2 on that takedown at the end of the first. He definitely exposed going hand to hand. If Cox gets that 4 instead of 2 then a caution 2 or whatever doesn't matter. Also​, the only real time Cox backed up heavily was when he slid on his knees backwards. Yes that was clear, but outside of that he had more attempts than Taylor in the second. Honestly though. I want all 4 of those guys on the team. Pray for good weights in 2018

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One thing on the Cox Taylor match is that you can also make a pretty good argument that Cox should have had 4 not 2 on that takedown at the end of the first. He definitely exposed going hand to hand. If Cox gets that 4 instead of 2 then a caution 2 or whatever doesn't matter. Also​, the only real time Cox backed up heavily was when he slid on his knees backwards. Yes that was clear, but outside of that he had more attempts than Taylor in the second. Honestly though. I want all 4 of those guys on the team. Pray for good weights in 2018

 

We don't know that it wouldn't have mattered.   You would have to assume the remainder of the bout goes exactly the same had it been a 4 and not a 2 for the caution and 2 to not matter.    What most likely happens is Taylor becomes more aggressive and more points are scored, either by him because of his pressure, or by Cox because of his aggressiveness.    The reality is the ref blew it big time allowing Cox to back up as much as he did after the injury. .

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The use of Video review in wrestling seems to only be for Objective calls.

Has there ever been a case where a passivity or stalling call was made due a the video review? 

That's my bad for trying to run a post together, didn't mean to group subjective and objective together. I was speaking on video review more as the replay can be a blessing and a curse, and fans are using replay to fuel the fire of how there was a blown call.

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Cletus,

 

That too is a real possibility. Your point on Taylor becoming more aggressive or wrestling different (paraphrasing), is a good argument for why it is so hard to now what an outcome may have been. Every variable in a match has the potential to change what happens next. The old butterfly effect. As for backing up, without going back and watching again, I only saw one real clear time outside of the last 30 seconds where it was strictly backing up. That is when he slid 75% across the mats on his knees. The other time if I recall were followed with **** attempts (mostly from the knees). Now he did back up a lot again inside the final 30 seconds.

 

It is just so hard to k ow. If Taylor would have got the call Cox would have had to change his plan and may have forced another step out.

 

We need space for both of them, same with Dake.

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