Pico Want's To Have His Cake And Eat It Too

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

Cletus, thought you weren't much of a fan of MMA. You've described it in some, well,  unsavory ways prior; unless I'm mixing you up with someone else. 

 

 

I am not a fan of our guys going that route, no.  Nor boxing either.   It doesn't mean I am ill informed on it.   I've actually coached numerous wrestlers with their transition into MMA.    Forum member here (I forget his handle, but it's in reference to the topic you probably are referring to) has been the victim of a one sided beating at the hands of one of my guys in training at said forum member's gym..   Ol' Cletus has coached up some tough hombres but not because I encourage anyone going MMA, but rather because I'd rather see them properly prepared for it.  

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

To recap, Zain = 1 Senior World Team.  Pico = 0 Senior World Teams.    

 

 

Yes  that's certainly one 

 

And don't forget

 

Pico 1 Olympic alternate position

zain 0 Olympic anything 

 

Pico 1 world cup team 

Zain 0 world cup team

 

head to head Pico 6 Zain 0

 

The wonderful thing here is if Zain continues with wrestling, he can continue to add to his resume.   Pico's been there, done that, and moved on to another sport.   Not all athletes can excel at multiple sports and Zain shouldn't be held to Pico's standard.   That's not fair to him at all.   I hope he stays with wrestling for another couple cycles.    To me it doesn't matter if Pico beat him 100 times, if Zain is the best remaining USA has, I'm supporting him.    

[Cletus_Tucker 890]

I can only imagine Flo's headline/reaction if Georgi Gogaev of Russia, who was injured in 2016, came out and said he would have beaten Snyder in Rio (and then promptly retired). 

 

 

Those nasty, nasty Russians.  Just nasty. 

 

 

What's his record vs Snyder?   If it's 6-0 or close, I can't see anyone other than select few American's having much issue with it as all.   I'd think he had earned the right to make that statement.    If Dake says he would have beat Taylor up at 86 had he not left the weight class, I can't see anyone disputing that, even if Dake hasn't been as dominant against Taylor as Pico has been against Zain.    He sort of has earned the right to make that type of statement.    

[BigTenFanboy 1,710]

What's his record vs Snyder?   If it's 6-0 or close, I can't see anyone other than select few American's having much issue with it as all.   I'd think he had earned the right to make that statement.    If Dake says he would have beat Taylor up at 86 had he not left the weight class, I can't see anyone disputing that, even if Dake hasn't been as dominant against Taylor as Pico has been against Zain.    He sort of has earned the right to make that type of statement.

 

It's one thing to have the right to say something and saying it, its another thing to have the right to say something but have humility and not say it. At the US Open Dake was asked on his thoughts on Taylor being up at 86k and he just deflected the question nicely and with class. Maybe I'm old school, but I expect that type of humility from our top level guys.

[BigTenFanboy 1,710]

Senior Level Freestyle Wrestling

 

• 2016 U.S. Olympic Trials Senior Men Freestyle 65 kg 2nd Place
• 2016 Alexander Medved International Senior Men Freestyle 65 kg Bronze Medal
• 2015 Bill Farrell Memorial International Senior Men Freestyle 65 kg Champion
• 2015 Cerro Pelado Int'l Senior Men Freestyle 65 kg Champion - Havana, Cuba^[10]
• 2014 Henri Deglane Challenge Senior Men Freestyle 65 kg Champion – Nice, France^[11]
• 2014 Soslan Andiyev Senior Men Freestyle 70 kg Bronze Medal – North Ossetia — Alania, Russia^[12]
• 2014 Grand Prix of Spain Senior Men Freestyle 65 kg Silver Medal – Madrid, Spain^[13]

now, there's no world championships, olympics, yarygin etc. in there, but to act like he doesn't have any accomplishments is pretty silly, billy.

For someone who has the potential to be the greatest of all time, this honestly is a pretty weak list of accomplishments.

 

Do you think Bruce Baumgartner, John Smith, or Jordan Burroughs would be happy with this as their list of accolades. Pico is capable of so much more than this...so no it's not silly billy at all.

Edited June 20, 2017 by BigTenFanboy

[TBar1977 3,764]

While Zain will be wrestling the best in the world at this year's World Championships, Pico will fight some over matched guy Bellator hand picks for him.

[Billyhoyle 1,987]

For someone who has the potential to be the greatest of all time, this honestly is a pretty weak list of accomplishments.

 

Do you think Bruce Baumgartner, John Smith, or Jordan Burroughs would be happy with this as their list of accolades. Pico is capable of so much more than this...so no it's not silly billy at all.

I did underestimate the number of tournaments he had entered at the senior level.  That was me misremembering.  With that said, I'd say Medved and Olympic trials are the only tournaments on the list that are as good/better competition than junior worlds.  Mark Hall won it as a 2nd year junior while Pico could not.  Lee won it as both a last year cadet and first year junior (albeit at 50 kg). Snyder's credentials are obviously better, and i'd still take Cejudo at 20 over Pico at 20. Since Pico's main argument over Hall/Lee is based on Senior level results, Cejudo actually being on the world team would put him above Pico (even though he only had 1 junior level medal). Also, I think once Gable Steveson wins junior worlds this year, his U20 credentials will be superior to Pico's.  

 

Bottom line is that Pico was a great wrestler, and one of the greatest young talents the U.S. ever produced.  Still, he was not the best by any measure. He still had a lot of development left to really elevate himself to the level of Snyder/Burroughs..I think he would have done it, but now it doesn't really matter.  He is no longer part of the discussion.  

 

 

 

While Zain will be wrestling the best in the world at this year's World Championships, Pico will fight some over matched guy Bellator hand picks for him.

 

No doubt about it.  Retherford is the man now and should be for the forseeable future, unless his production drops off after he graduates next year and has to to split his time with a day job selling insurance.  

Edited June 20, 2017 by Billyhoyle

[TBar1977 3,764]

No doubt about it. Retherford is the man now and should be for the forseeable future

Agree.

[AllISeeIsBronze 64]

I don't know who here would argue that Pico would be the greatest or one of the greatest in American wrestling history... I'm huge on Pico, but I don't think if he was an Olympian he was going to be in the running for gold or silver. His style nor wrestling IQ wasn't exactly suited for international opponents.

 

For the people ripping on his junior worlds' 'failures' though, I think context is needed. He faced and lost against Yazdani. The Olympic champion. The one who horsed around Green, Marable, and Dieringer. Even before those matches, he was seen as the favorite to win gold.

 

The next year, Pico got 3rd but lost in a questionable match to a guy who legitimately raised suspicions about his own eligibility in the tournament. He then took 3rd by techfall.

[TBar1977 3,764]

For the people ripping on his junior worlds' 'failures' though, I think context is needed.

 

For clarification, I am not ripping Pico's past junior worlds results. I am ripping his non existing current and future fantasy league results.

[LJB 1,453]

While Zain will be wrestling the best in the world at this year's World Championships, Pico will fight some over matched guy Bellator hand picks for him.

Pico is not fighting a can... 

[AllISeeIsBronze 64]

For clarification, I am not ripping Pico's past junior worlds results. I am ripping his non existing current and future fantasy league results.

With the given history between the two, repeatedly, all of the data does point towards Pico though. I'm not even saying he would win all the time against Zain, but the style matchup does not favor Zain.

 

Again, I don't agree with what Pico said, but I don't see how people are choosing to go with Zain here. He doesn't have any supporting points here except that he has continued wrestling whereas Pico hasn't- but Pico hasn't been resting on the couch either...

 

EDIT: Also, yeah what LJB said. Pico's opponent isn't a title contender but he isn't a pushover.

Edited June 20, 2017 by AllISeeIsBronze

[RetiredPoster 87]

Some "winter/off-season" victories and 2nds and 3rds. Didn't win one major, Senior-level competition. Deglane and Cerro Pelado are two lower-level competitions. Incredible talent..I hope he reaches his MMA goals.

[TBar1977 3,764]

Again, I don't agree with what Pico said, but I don't see how people are choosing to go with Zain here.

 

It is a fantasy match. Not picking the non wrestler over the World Team member seems like an obvious choice.

[headshuck 2,177]

Zain and Taylor are something like 0-14 vs their respective nemesis so that might be why people think the way they do.

[TBar1977 3,764]

Pico is not fighting a can... 

 

 

Who is he fighting?

[Jaroslav Hasek 1,865]

Some "winter/off-season" victories and 2nds and 3rds. Didn't win one major, Senior-level competition. Deglane and Cerro Pelado are two lower-level competitions. Incredible talent..I hope he reaches his MMA goals.

that is better than all but our senior world medalists, of which there are not many. so it's fair to bring up, so you're ok so far. but as soon as you start disparaging Pico's accomplishments, you disparage our other great senior level athletes who never accomplished those feats, either before the age of 19 or after. 

 

so please be careful and do not disrespect our American wrestlers, RetiredPoster. Thank you. 

[steamboat_charlie 727]

Who is he fighting?

 

Some guy named Zach Freeman.  8-2 record with all of his fights at lower promotions.  I don't think he has any chance against Pico unless he catches him in a sub or something, but he's definitely not a can.  

 

Most guys would fight someone with far less experience in their first bout.  The story out of Bellator is that they couldn't get anyone to agree to fight him, and had to do a special petition to even get the fight sanctioned with an 0-0 guy stepping in with a vet.  

[BigTenFanboy 1,710]

I don't know who here would argue that Pico would be the greatest or one of the greatest in American wrestling history... I'm huge on Pico, but I don't think if he was an Olympian he was going to be in the running for gold or silver. His style nor wrestling IQ wasn't exactly suited for international opponents.

 

For the people ripping on his junior worlds' 'failures' though, I think context is needed. He faced and lost against Yazdani. The Olympic champion. The one who horsed around Green, Marable, and Dieringer. Even before those matches, he was seen as the favorite to win gold.

 

The next year, Pico got 3rd but lost in a questionable match to a guy who legitimately raised suspicions about his own eligibility in the tournament. He then took 3rd by techfall.

 

You don't think that Pico could been an Olympic of World Champion if he stayed and focused on freestyle wrestling?

Seriously? My thought is that due to his young age, had he focused solely on wrestling and continued to improve at the rate of most people his age he could have won several Olympic and World titles.. IMO the kid was just getting started..

[Frank_Rizzo 321]

Yes  that's certainly one 

 

And don't forget

 

Pico 1 Olympic alternate position

zain 0 Olympic anything 

 

Pico 1 world cup team 

Zain 0 world cup team

 

head to head Pico 6 Zain 0

 

The wonderful thing here is if Zain continues with wrestling, he can continue to add to his resume.   Pico's been there, done that, and moved on to another sport.   Not all athletes can excel at multiple sports and Zain shouldn't be held to Pico's standard.   That's not fair to him at all.   I hope he stays with wrestling for another couple cycles.    To me it doesn't matter if Pico beat him 100 times, if Zain is the best remaining USA has, I'm supporting him.    

 

I'd be hard-pressed to identify any athlete who has ever gotten more mileage out of a runner-up finish than Pico other than maybe Nancy Kerrigan in the '94 Olympics, but she actually made the team. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Frank_Rizzo

[RetiredPoster 87]

Jaroslav Hasek Disrespect American Wrestlers? This whole "thing" started with the Pico disciples on here saying "that he's going to whip this guy" and "win that tournament", "win the Olympics".blah blah blah. All when he was about 16 years old. Disrespecting every other American wrestler along the way. I've never shown any disrespect to any American wrestler. That's a crazy accusation.

[TBar1977 3,764]

Some guy named Zach Freeman.  8-2 record with all of his fights at lower promotions.  I don't think he has any chance against Pico unless he catches him in a sub or something, but he's definitely not a can.  

 

Most guys would fight someone with far less experience in their first bout.  The story out of Bellator is that they couldn't get anyone to agree to fight him, and had to do a special petition to even get the fight sanctioned with an 0-0 guy stepping in with a vet.  

 

 

Sounds good. I would expect Pico to win this pretty easily. Bellator certainly isn't going to put him in against anyone who would be able to beat him aside from the 1/100 punch that knocks him out. I really don't expect Pico to get submitted. 

[TBar1977 3,764]

You don't think that Pico could been an Olympic of World Champion if he stayed and focused on freestyle wrestling?

Seriously? My thought is that due to his young age, had he focused solely on wrestling and continued to improve at the rate of most people his age he could have won several Olympic and World titles.. IMO the kid was just getting started..

 

 

The point that people are making isn't that he could not have done it, but that he chose not to stick with the sport. People are not going to willingly just roll over and concede world team status to him over guys who stuck it out even if he did beat that guy in the past. He is no longer "improving" his wrestling, but Zain is improving his. No reason to just assume Pico would still beat him.

 

It will be funny if/when Zain someday wins a world title and someone brings up Aaron Pico. 

[Jaroslav Hasek 1,865]

Jaroslav Hasek Disrespect American Wrestlers? This whole "thing" started with the Pico disciples on here saying "that he's going to whip this guy" and "win that tournament", "win the Olympics".blah blah blah. All when he was about 16 years old. Disrespecting every other American wrestler along the way. I've never shown any disrespect to any American wrestler. That's a crazy accusation.

I said you are very close to disrespecting American wrestlers. the more you downplay Pico's achievements, the more you disparage and disrespect the American wrestlers he has beaten. 

 

just watch yourself is all I'm saying. you are very close to crossing that "disrespect" line. consider yourself on notice. 

[Jaroslav Hasek 1,865]

I'd be hard-pressed to identify any athlete who has ever gotten more mileage out of a runner-up finish than Pico other than maybe Nancy Kerrigan in the '94 Olympics, but she actually made the team. 

yes not many 19 year olds make it to the top of the one of the deepest and competitive weight classes in freestyle wrestling. i doubt we see a #2 on the US ladder get as much hype for a long time. 

 

you make a good observation.