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Is Snyder the greatest college wrestler of all time?

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bigmik,

 

How about this to close my case.  Since it fits into the type of logic you use to argue your point.

 

Askren wrecked Herbert, Herbert beat Varner, Varner beat Snyder the 1st match of 3 after wrestling the challenge tournament.  So by transitive property, Askren is better than Snyder.

 

Case closed.  Now go play dress up with TBar...............

 

I didn't use this type of argumentation. My case was far more comprehensive than this. You know this, that's why you ignored my best arguments, ignored the refutation of your own, and had to resort to lying to try to save your case. Your position remains untenable to everyone that understands wrestling.

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I saw somewhere some yahoo said that Snyder was never taken down in high school, I saw him as a junior win the  ironman with ease and we joked that he should take on Brooks Black. Well the reason I bring this up being a 14 yr old freshman at the Beast of the East and not get taken down at 215 . I'm not sure if that is true that I would ever pick against Snyder. 

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Cael would be too quick for Snyder. Big difference in Sanderson in for a takedown and Snyder in on the fat boys. Sanderson had the speed and finesse as well as the strength to go with Snyder. In College Sanderson is the king of the 4 timers. Uetake tho is the guy I would take for one match - all the marbles no matter what.

On the World Stage I hope Snyder keeps it up. Same as I did with Jordan Burroughs and hope he gets it back and wins again.

None of them are John Smith - not yet.

 

As for the Unlimited weight at the top - bring it back. Prejudice and bigotry are really why it was taken away.

I don't see quickness being a serious issue. People seem to forget that Snyder has beaten Cox the last two times that they wrestled. Cael was quick, but it was more so his angle creation and attack rate that made him difficult to deal with. From a pure quickness standpoint, Cael's shots weren't unusually quick. Solid technique and anticipation can go along ways. I've seen both up close, and talking pure quickness, Shawn Bunch was quicker than Smith, I'm confident he'd be able to beat him in any quickness drill that you'd set up, but in a wrestling match Smith appeared as quick or quicker due to his nearly unrivaled technique. If you gave Smith Bunch's pure quickness, you'd

have to ban him from the sport because wrestling wouldn't be fair. It would be like how they had to ban dunking to give Lew Alcindor's opponents a chance.

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I was hoping you of all people would get how that was not only intentionally immature but ridiculously inaccurate.

 

You said you requested evidence of some sort from me that I didn't give. What is it that you want evidence of? And is the reason for the evidence because you don't believe a certain claim?

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Two guys who wrestled as freshmen without the benefit of a red shirt:

 

Career wins: Retherford 96, Snyder 58

 

Career losses: Retherford 3, Snyder 4

 

Career winning percentage: Retherford 97%, Snyder 93.5%

 

Career bonus rate: Retherford 71.7%, Snyder 64.5%

 

Career pins: Retherford 36, Snyder 6

 

Current undefeated streak: Retherford 64 matches, Snyder 28 matches

 

Career team points scored at NCAAs: Retherford 68.5, Snyder 66.5

 

Hodge trophies: Retherford 1, Snyder 0

 

Greatest college-aged Olympic wrestler to compete part-time in NCAA events? No doubt.

 

Greatest college wrestler? Still no.

How many Senior World and Olympic titles does the age group champ Retherford have? None.

 

So while Zain was folkstyle wrestling some 19 kid, Snyder was winning Worlds as a 19 yr old kid.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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Cjc007,

 

According to a few people on this board, that is really not significant at all. That only happened in a different style so it's completely irrelevant and says nothing of the skill level a guy has in folkstyle wrestling.

 

Hypothetical: If an NCAA champion made a world team and over the course of the summer somehow got so good that he could takedown a prime Saitiev 5 times per match, and every other top tier guy 10 times a match, it wouldn't say anything about his folkstyle ability. This guy isn't necessarily as good on his feet as a guy in college that is able to takedown D1 opponents on his way to an NCAA title like Jason Nolf.

 

Because neutral wrestling in a folkstyle can potentially be totally different than a freestyle match, we're supposed to believe that nothing can be translated between the two styles. Never mind all of the times that we see a freestyle match, and it looks exactly like a folkstyle match when the wrestlers are in neutral. Or the fact that wrestling fans/coaches/competitors/analysts have found value in using freestyle matches to predict folkstyle potential. Or how top coaches were convinced of certain wrestler's folkstyle potential after watching him win in Fargo Jr. Freestyle. Or how a wave of Japanese freestyle wrestlers came in and were next competitive in folkstyle right away (most notably Uetake, greatest folkstyle of his era). All of this is supposed to mean nothing. Because folkstylers have more counters available to them due to no exposure rules, literally every takedown is up for grabs. Never mind the fact that a large percentage of takedowns in folkstyle are finished without a hint of a 50/50 scramble/funk situation because the offensive wrestler put his opponent in such a terrible position to begin with that he simply had to concede the takedown. And that this percentage increases the better a wrestler gets on his feet. And the guys that are recognized as the very best on their feet at the collegiate level were able to keep this up at the world level while still in college, or shortly after. This means nothing.

 

Yeah, I don't get it either!

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MSU158, You said you requested evidence of some sort from me that I didn't give. What is it that you want evidence of? And is the reason for the evidence because you don't believe a certain claim?

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Cjc007,

 

According to a few people on this board, that is really not significant at all. That only happened in a different style so it's completely irrelevant and says nothing of the skill level a guy has in folkstyle wrestling.

 

Hypothetical: If an NCAA champion made a world team and over the course of the summer somehow got so good that he could takedown a prime Saitiev 5 times per match, and every other top tier guy 10 times a match, it wouldn't say anything about his folkstyle ability. This guy isn't necessarily as good on his feet as a guy in college that is able to takedown D1 opponents on his way to an NCAA title like Jason Nolf.

 

Because neutral wrestling in a folkstyle can potentially be totally different than a freestyle match, we're supposed to believe that nothing can be translated between the two styles. Never mind all of the times that we see a freestyle match, and it looks exactly like a folkstyle match when the wrestlers are in neutral. Or the fact that wrestling fans/coaches/competitors/analysts have found value in using freestyle matches to predict folkstyle potential. Or how top coaches were convinced of certain wrestler's folkstyle potential after watching him win in Fargo Jr. Freestyle. Or how a wave of Japanese freestyle wrestlers came in and were next competitive in folkstyle right away (most notably Uetake, greatest folkstyle of his era). All of this is supposed to mean nothing. Because folkstylers have more counters available to them due to no exposure rules, literally every takedown is up for grabs. Never mind the fact that a large percentage of takedowns in folkstyle are finished without a hint of a 50/50 scramble/funk situation because the offensive wrestler put his opponent in such a terrible position to begin with that he simply had to concede the takedown. And that this percentage increases the better a wrestler gets on his feet. And the guys that are recognized as the very best on their feet at the collegiate level were able to keep this up at the world level while still in college, or shortly after. This means nothing.

 

Yeah, I don't get it either!

 

I get it - see Brent Metcalf. 

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I think the better question would be if Snyder is the best heavy of all time. There have been some very talented heavy's through the years. Snyder vs Neal would have been a fun one to watch. 

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"Kyle Snyder will be going for a 3rd straight national title at heavyweight this coming season. 
The previous champ Nick Gwiazdowski was going for his 3rd straight when Snyder beat him in 2016. 
Gwiazdowski beat Tony Nelson in 2014 while Nelson was going for his 3rd straight title. 
Nelson won his first championship in 2012, knocking off defending national champ Zach Rey."

 

If KS does not lose this next year at NCAA, he's the greatest.  Cael, Gable, Smith, etc.....none of them could have beat Snyder.  *

 

 

 

 

*Copied from thee Ohio forum.

Edited by stp

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If KS does not lose this next year at NCAA, he's the greatest.  Cael, Gable, Smith, etc.....none of them could have beat Snyder.  

 

Guaranteed Snyder would've had no problem with Gable or Smith :D Not saying his technique is necessarily better, just that Kyle could probably take both of those runts on at the same time.

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I think the better question would be if Snyder is the best heavy of all time. There have been some very talented heavy's through the years. Snyder vs Neal would have been a fun one to watch. 

 

Neal probably would've beaten Snyder. Neal was a world HWT champ in his own right.

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I think the better question would be if Snyder is the best heavy of all time. There have been some very talented heavy's through the years. Snyder vs Neal would have been a fun one to watch. 

How did Snyder do in the room with Dlagnev a year ago?  Weight matters and NCAA has not had a great AND big heavy the last 2 years.  I think there are quite a few full sized heavies who would have beat Snyder and that's no knock on him.  Just like it's no knock on Cael he would likely lose to a bigger Snyder.  And no knock on Burroughs he'd lose to a bigger Cael.  And Smith to Burroughs.  We have weight classes for a reason.  

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What if we just go with "Yes." And say, since he was a World and Olympic Champ while still in college, he was the best guy on the planet. And therefore the best college wrestler of all time. Now I'm sure others will point to this and that, and say others did the same thing, and I say fine, it's a tie then.

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MSU158, You said you requested evidence of some sort from me that I didn't give. What is it that you want evidence of? And is the reason for the evidence because you don't believe a certain claim?

What evidence did you ask for numerous times that I failed to provide? Could you be specific MSU158?

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Snyder is the best college aged freestyle wrestler of all time is a pretty legitimate statement.  But somebody who only shows up to wrestle at Big Tens and NCAAs (over half of his matches the last two years were at those two events) shouldn't be in the the conversation for being considered the best college wrestler ever.  He's skipping the grind and grabbing the glory.  That doesn't make him a bad person.  But it does make it impossible to compare him to guys who go through every week of the season for 4-5 years.  Consider, for example, how much tape Snyder and his coaches have on his opponents vs. how much tape they have of Snyder?  Other guys have dozens of matches where their weaknesses can be exposed.  Snyder doesn't. 

Edited by ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying

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To follow up on that - how many guys would be able to perform at a higher level if they skipped most of the season and just showed up for the post-season?  Think about it.  Injury recovery time would be as much as they needed as long as it didn't run in to late February.  Weight cutting would be limited to just a handful of events instead of a constant struggle.  They'd have time to focus on technique vs. being in shape for multiple 7 minute matches each week.  The list goes on.  What Snyder is doing and what college wrestlers do are two different things.

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Snyder is the best college aged freestyle wrestler of all time is a pretty legitimate statement.  But somebody who only shows up to wrestle at Big Tens and NCAAs (over half of his matches the last two years were at those two events) shouldn't be in the the conversation for being considered the best college wrestler ever.  He's skipping the grind and grabbing the glory.  That doesn't make him a bad person.  But it does make it impossible to compare him to guys who go through every week of the season for 4-5 years.  Consider, for example, how much tape Snyder and his coaches have on his opponents vs. how much tape they have of Snyder?  Other guys have dozens of matches where their weaknesses can be exposed.  Snyder doesn't.

 

Snyder doesn't watch tape of his opponents. There's plenty of tape on Snyder. He wrestled an entire year as a true freshman and he has all his freestyle matches online. He wrestles the same way in both styles on his feet.

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To follow up on that - how many guys would be able to perform at a higher level if they skipped most of the season and just showed up for the post-season?  Think about it.  Injury recovery time would be as much as they needed as long as it didn't run in to late February.  Weight cutting would be limited to just a handful of events instead of a constant struggle.  They'd have time to focus on technique vs. being in shape for multiple 7 minute matches each week.  The list goes on.  What Snyder is doing and what college wrestlers do are two different things.

College wrestlers aren't forced to wrestle 30 + matches per season, that's a choice. If coaches believe they would perform better with fewer matches, they would wrestle them less. I agree that most collegiate wrestlers wrestle too many matches. I'm not sure why most coaches don't cut down on matches.

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Snyder doesn't watch tape of his opponents. There's plenty of tape on Snyder. He wrestled an entire year as a true freshman and he has all his freestyle matches online. He wrestles the same way in both styles on his feet.

curious why you assume Snyder doesn't watch tape. has he said this? seems to me a real student of the game and that he would scout the top heavyweight NCAA guys.

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curious why you assume Snyder doesn't watch tape. has he said this? seems to me a real student of the game and that he would scout the top heavyweight NCAA guys.

Snyder has only ever mentioned watching tape of a few international wrestlers. Snyder doesn't even train folkstyle.

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