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patmilkovich

Rules and Format Changes to Improve Folkstyle Wrestling

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Yes, using the strategy as noted by steamboat, and correctly evaluated by zebra, stalling would be the appropriate call.  Regarding the scoring: I have coached at every level, except Olympic, and one of the big turnoffs to people tying to understand wrestling is the scoring and all the nuances of the technicalities.  I just think that simplifying the scoring and making it easier to understand will help to make it more appealing.  My suggestion for the weight classes is derived from logic.  All positions in other sports are congruent.  Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc. I feel that with the spacing between weights, it might allow college coaches to better predict where a kid is going to wrestle in the future.  yes, there are always surprises.  In my opinion, there are too many weight classes in both high school and college.  I believe that more football players would be inclined to participate, and i think the spacing allows for a kid in between weights to either cut a few harmless pounds or lift and get bigger for the higher weight and there would probably be fewer forfeits since we're dealing with filling 11 instead of 14 weight classes.  Tournaments and duals are shortened, big plus.  As far as "three weight classes above 200.." Not sure why that would be a problem...there are some big kids in hs.

 

The weights are only suggestions.  Don't lambaste me for that. Make a suggestion and follow that with your rationale. 

 

As far as the bottom man goes.  I believe that he has a responsibility and a duty to actively change his status.  I don't believe that it is the primary responsibility for the top man to carry the action.  That is the main factor why I would like to see 1 point for every 30 seconds of riding time.  It's only a 6 minute match, 8 minutes is a big difference, but for 6 minutes, two guys ought to be able to get after it, even from bottom.  Like I mentioned earlier, bottom is an opportunity to score some points.  I'm guessing that many of you on here weren't around in the 60's/70's.  If you can take my word for it, there were a lot of folks who were absolutely unstoppable on bottom and there a lot folks who were tough as hell on top, and when they matched up, the wrestling was superb.  So if someone is going to hang on an ankle or lay on top of his man, that would indicate bottom guys fault for allowing it and top guy would be called for stalling anyway.  That's not what top/bottom wrestling should be.  I just believe that folkstyle wrestlers should be proficient in all three disciplines...neutral, top, and bottom.  When all things are equal on the feet, top and bottom separates them.  If riding time was reinstated at the high school level along with the corresponding strategies, think how much better the wrestling would be as they progressed.  We have virtually stopped developing top and bottom techniques and that's why it's so "boring.  It's really just too hard to coach and learn those techniques. It's easier to label it boring, which is just an excuse, in my opinion, of course.

 

Regarding "pin or win,"  tilts are not pin holds, they are just...tilts.  Yes, every now and then someone, mostly high school or younger, will get pinned.  It's not the norm.  Take away the major and tech and I believe there will be more falls recorded.  Once the threshold for a tech is met, the match is over.  As mentioned earlier, and I know it doesn't happen often, but it can still happen and I have witnessed it several times in hs and college, there's always the chance to pin the guy who's up 22-2, or whatever.  

 

The "two steps back" rule forced wrestling to occur in the center.  Yes, there was pushing, but that was easily countered by circling.  Some folks didn't quite understand that and consequently they paid the price.  No, pushing is not wrestling, but cagey wrestlers will use those "pressure in" forces to their advantage and not be sucked into the pushing game.  Watching Gable and Iowa in their heyday was something special.  Yes, they pushed, and they pounded, and they banged, and they snapped, and dogged you on top and the literally exploded from bottom.  Some of best stuff ever. 

 

Regarding the sprawling comment. Personally, I do not think "funk" is a good strategy.  Yes, it's fun to watch the uncertainty of it, but it doesn't tire your opponent out. Traditional sprawling, done correctly, makes your opponent tired, it makes him fight hard just to stay even, and it also sends him a message of just how difficult it will be to score by going underneath, so he better have alternatives.  Sprawling is using your weight, leverage, balance, and angles while using very little strength. And it sets up good scoring opportunities. 

 

If a few of you folks are willing, please send me your real name, city, state, either by pm or email, as I would like to forward a few of the responses to the powers that be, at Amateur Wrestling News Magazine.  

 

Thanks for the discussion

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Sorry Pat I'm just a former ref and a nobody in this world. I vowed, at least until my kid graduated college, to do whatever is necessary to remain anonymous as I find the internet to be a cesspool. A sometimes informative and entertaining one to be sure but a cesspool not withstanding.  

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With the modified push out rule for collegiate folkstyle I don't see the need to change much. Last year was the first year I enjoyed watching (always enjoyed following it) folkstyle in years. No more endless play the edge of the mat. 

 

I am hoping collegiate folk doesn't go the way of greco where the rules changed so much, so drastically, I couldn't keep up, and gave up. The sport cannot afford to lose any casual fans or it will become a handful of schools and everybody qualifies.

 

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Charlie,

Top and bottom wrestling is control based.  Either the top man controls the bottom man or the bottom man controls the top man by escaping or reversing.  That is why I believe 1pt. for every 30 seconds of “control”, if you will, would make the game more exciting.  What do you notice in o/t when the bottom man is down for 30 seconds?

 

Techs and majors don’t lead to the most exciting event in wrestling, falls.  3 for a win and 6 for a pin addresses your queries.  It rewards superior ability for a fall and it distinguishes a greater relative value to a win by 3 more points.  For me, logic would dictate way more falls will occur as a result if those were the only two possible outcomes.

 

No, I do not think that wrestlers today are better at defending pinning combinations today for the following reasons: There is little progression of skill development from ms/hs to college.  Top skills have largely declined and he is expected to carry the action.  Bottom man really doesn’t have to take much risk, which could lead to getting caught because his responsibility for action is minimal, top man will get called for stalling, resulting in an easy escape.  This is where the 1pt./30 seconds changes things.  

 

Gallan,

We’re already there, in my opinion.  First of all, we’re down to approx. 77 D1 programs.  I wrote an article a year or so ago predicting that wrestling was on it’s way to the “handful” as you stated.   Second of all, nearly everyone already does qualify for the NCAA’s in the BIG.  When I competed, it was top 4, now it’s the top 11 or 12 in some weight classes.  According one source in my research, approximately 168 D1 wrestling programs have been dropped since 1972. 

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Alternate top/bottom in 2nd and 3rd periods – eliminate Neutral-Defer choices

 

 

Reduce OT situations.  If all scoring/penalties are equal, deciding criteria will be most riding time at the end of the match.

 

 Thanks

 

I'm indifferent on getting rid of neutral/defer and making RT break ties could be a good idea worth trying out at the all star meet.  The rest I don't like.

 

Two steps backwards = stalling sounds great until you consider how subjective that would be. 

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6 minute matches – 2-2-2 at both levels fine

2 pts TD fine

1pt E fine

2pts R fine

1 pt for every 30 seconds of RT while I would have loved this in high school, no. Scoring would be screwed up more often than not.

2 pts NF for min 5 count at 45 degrees or less what? no

3 pts NF for min 5 count if one shoulder touches and comes up see above

3 pts. Decision of course

6 pts. Fall of course

Eliminate majors/tech falls…either Win or Pin. - oh **** no. no, no, no, stop, no. 

 

Alternate top/bottom in 2nd and 3rd periods – eliminate Neutral-Defer choices no, do not force mat wrestling when it's a weak position for someone.

 

Two-steps backward = stalling. how do you sprawl then? no

 

Reduce OT situations.  If all scoring/penalties are equal, deciding criteria will be most riding time at the end of the match. matches should never, ever, under any circumstances be decided on criteria. wrestling until it's decided. if it takes 30 minutes, it takes 30 minutes. 

 

IF overtime is warranted:

1st period: 30 sec on feet

2nd period: 1 min - coin toss winner chooses top or bottom.  Escape with opportunity to wrestle the complete minute for more scoring.

Ride-out wins. see above

 

High school weights should parallel collegiate weights with the exception that college should have 9 and high school 11. no opinion

High School- 98-110-120-133-145-158-170-185-200-230-HVY

College -                    120-133-145-158-170-185-200-230-HVY

 

Redefine “A TAKEDOWN occurs when a contestant gains control and places his opponent's supporting points down on the mat and held beyond reaction time.”  (All scoring should indicate mastery and control of an opponent or a situation.) not necessary but no opinion really

 

Eliminate two-hands below the waist 5 count. Actually, this rule does for the bottom man what the bottom man cannot do for himself.  It breaks the top man’s control. Top man has to be afforded the opportunity to establish control/mastery/dominance by anchoring the extremities. not necessary

 

 

---------------------------

 

Synopsis

The goal is to make it simpler to understand the sport, easier for college to recruit weight classes, lower costs, decrease forfeits at the high school level, reduce weight cutting, virtual elimination of dual ties, shorten dual meets and tournaments, and provide .9 more scholarship money to use in college. I also believe these changes will decrease burnout and allow for more coaching instruction, fewer educational days missed, and a more attractive product for the masses.

 

 Thanks

 

Thoughts in bold

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I think making HWT unlimited would increase the number of guys wrestling. 285 isn't even considerered "big" anymore by D1 lineman standards. We're losing a lot of good guys who had to choose from 1) continuing a possibly lucrative football career but will have to get bigger (and already they are at the wrestling weight limits) or 2) starving themselves to stay small enough for a hand to mouth existence as a HS coach or a college assistant somewhere. If they are lucky. It's really not a choice.

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I'm an old guy, and I think a change to the heavyweight limit might help a bit.  Our own high school has had a couple of D1 linemen come through, and both weighed over 300 (not by a lot) senior year.  For some of these guys across the nation, raising the limit might get a few more big guys out for the teams. 

 

As far as the other points, my  only real interest is in the tilts.  I think there are too many of them sloppily awarded.   Even at the higher levels, I watch the Big10 matches on BTN and I see two points tossed out for less than two seconds of exposure, and less than the proper criteria.  With the four point nearfall now in use, you can lose the match, effectively, on one lousy momentary situation that in my opinion should not be worth the same as two takedowns. 

 

Requiring longer counts would help.  Maybe if we required the shoulder angle to be less than 30 degrees from the mat, the refs would move more towards the 45 criteria.  As it is, far too many start counting at just past 90 degrees, and too fast too.  

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Nobody did those style tilts when I was wrestling, back in the Pleistocene apparently. We didn't have a mercy rule either, and guys could get beaten by 30 points or more in a match.

 

Agreed, the tilt thing is a bit cheap. Maybe put some sort of limit on it, somehow.

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Agree with Win or Pin.

Don't agree that technical superiority should not be rewarded. Win by 8 and score 4 team points. Win by 15 and score 5 team points. Pin still 6 points.

 

Has to be a way to put the wrestlers on their feet or a choice when the top man is just riding - not going for a turn and a pin. Maybe 30 seconds without trying to turn - lose One riding point? Maybe an escape for 1 but if you just let him go more than once the second one and others are 2 points?

 

Riding is a killer for many who watch. "Two on the mat hugging each other and doing nothing" is how one fan I know described it to his girlfriend. Have to get them to push for a pin or an escape/reversal.

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Maybe tweek a few things, but I think college wrestling is the best it's ever been.  When I started it was a totally different sport than what we have now.  A lot of fans who haven't seen the sport since the 70's hate it now.  I've followed it consistently, so I watched most of the rules you want to eliminate evolve.  They were all better than what they replaced.  I love tilts, scrambling, even breaking your opponent with a good ride.  T-falls, man you guys are mean.  I love the mercy rule.  I feel like I need to take a shower and go to church after I watch a guy humiliated 50-nuttin.  I wouldn't mind the push out rule, but most of these suggestions would tend to drive me away. 

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