Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
KTG119

2017 Penn St vs 1997 Iowa

Recommended Posts

Too funny.  I can pretty much guarantee that NO ONE on here agreed with you regarding Askren.  Considering that is an argument you used to try to point out my being wrong about the Metcalf 149 bracket, you may want to revisit that argument.

The right people agree with me, but ultimately, who cares? It's not who agrees with you here, it's whether what you say corresponds to reality. And you are dead wrong. You can keep arguing to the cows come home if you like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right people agree with me, but ultimately, who cares? It's not who agrees with you here, it's whether what you say corresponds to reality. And you are dead wrong. You can keep arguing to the cows come home if you like.

If you really thought it didn't matter who agreed with you then you wouldn't have brought it up when you thought it benefited your argument.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you really thought it didn't matter who agreed with you then you wouldn't have brought it up when you thought it benefited your argument.

 

I'm not using it to supplement my argument. I just stated that because MSU, for some reason, believes I'm the only one who believes what I post here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not using it to supplement my argument. I just stated that because MSU, for some reason, believes I'm the only one who believes what I post here.

yet again you cite the "right people" without clarifying who or actually proving they agree............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yet again you cite the "right people" without clarifying who or actually proving they agree............

No different from you always talking as if it's a given that I'm holding onto an opinion that no one else does. You never provide poll results. Again, I'm not using anyone else to supplement my argument.

Edited by bigmik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right people agree with me, but ultimately, who cares? It's not who agrees with you here, it's whether what you say corresponds to reality. And you are dead wrong. You can keep arguing to the cows come home if you like.

 

This is Trump-esque.  "The right people agree with me."  Genius stuff.

 

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nolf is also relentless and is on the same career college path McIlravy finished with.

 

Was this the year Mac won ncaa by 1 pt. in the final?

Nope.  He beat Bono 5-3 in OT that year.  But, Bono wasn't exactly chopped liver.

 

Edited to add:  Bono was the defending Champ.  The year you are talking about is McIlravy's TF season.  His opponent was Gerry Abas.

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too funny. I can pretty much guarantee that NO ONE on here agreed with you regarding Askren. Considering that is an argument you used to try to point out my being wrong about the Metcalf 149 bracket, you may want to revisit that argument.

 

Also, if 87-0, 54 pins and 2 Hodges isn't enough to resemble a good argument, I am happy to not argue with you about it...............

Those Askren stats remind me of arguments I used to have years ago on the old boxing forums. The Askren arguments are eerily similar to the ones I used to have over the "great" boxer Acelino Freitas. He was kind of like the Askren of boxing.

 

2004: Acelino Freitas 35-0 (31 KOs). He's the next biggest thing in boxing folks, he's truly one for the ages"! "He's relentless. He knocks guys out from all angles with BOTH hands.

 

Freitas fans: He is an all time great. No one is doing what he's doing right now. He's amazing. He's just at another level.

 

Me: He's pretty good guys.

 

Frietas fans: "What do you mean pretty good? Stop with the backhanded compliments. He's amazing, you're just a hater".

 

Me: Yeah, he has some talent, but he's not quite elite. Yes, he appears to be elite, but that's because he's not facing the top fighters yet. Remember what happened to him in the amateurs when he faced the creme de la creme? He was outclassed. If you're looking for an elite fighter, check out Floyd Mayweather Jr.

 

Frietas fans: Why are you going back to the amateurs? He's waaaayyy different now. He's jumped levels. He's much better. Besides, that's not even the same style fool. And...

 

Me: Wait. Are you sure that he has jumped levels? Maybe he looks a million bucks because he's facing weaker, younger fighters. He has talent, but he's not nearly as special as you think. Once he faced the truly great technical boxers he's going to run into problems

 

 

Freitas fans: Hahaha are you kidding me? That's what they said about Joel Casamayor. They said he was a great technical boxer and Freitas beat him easy. He would beat anyone including that Mayweather guy.

 

Me: Yes, he had a good win over Casamayor. I give him credit, that was impressive. Still, Casamayor is a notch below elite. He's second tier just like Freitas. Freitas can certainly get away with his mistakes against these types, but that will not happen against tier 1 opponents. Not consistently at least.

 

Freitas fans: I vehemently disagree with you. Anyone who says a world champion with a 35-0 31 KO record is not top tier is crazy. No one agrees with you. No one. Most here on this forum do not agree with you.

 

.......

Edited by bigmik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Continued:

 

 

Me: The right people agree with me!

 

Freitas fans: Oh please. And who are these "right people"?

 

Me: It doesn't matter who they are really. Also, I'm under no obligation to prove to you that which is common knowledge. You should just focus on the fact that what I say corresponds to reality.

 

Freitas fans: Freitas is awesome.

 

Me: He appears to be awesome given his competition.

 

Freitas fans: But you say Mayweather is "elite" and "top tier" or whatever stupid words or phrases you always overuse, and he actually showed flaws against Corley. He almost got knocked down! Hahahaha.

 

Me: Yes he did show flaws, nobody's perfect.

 

Freitas fans: Freitas would knock that Corley guy out!

 

Me: I agree

 

Freitas fans: So that means he's better, right?

 

Me: No. Believe it or not, he's actually more likely to win by knockout because.........he's worse.

 

Freitas fans: Ahhhhhhhhhh! Just stop you idiot!!!!!! You're not making any sense whatsoever.

 

Me: You see Freitas fights the way he does because he has to. He has no choice but to be a KO artist. He lacks versatility. He can't win against the best with high level, high percentage boxing skills and tactics so he has to bait opponents into boxing a very particular match to win. He has to force brawls and rely on his opponents making mistakes.

 

That's all well and good until he faces someone that is a Jack of all trades. Someone who has mastered the fundamentals of the sweet science. Someone with top tier head movement, footwork, defense, offense, and timing. A truly great boxer. These guys will not let him bait them into bad positions, for they will be doing the baiting. Through superior skill, they will dictate the pace and land most of the scoring punches. He will be outclassed and it won't be competitive. The way these guys fight is how all the best trainers teach the up and comers how to fight. Head hunters like Freitas are good for filling seats maybe, but there's a reason that style is never actively taught at the best boxing gyms. It doesn't work at the highest level. He's essentially turned a gimmick into his whole style! Don't get me wrong, he's an innovator and I appreciate what he's accomplished, but there's no reason to think his style should be the norm amongst the elite. The best trainers will analyze his style, take from it what works, and discard the rest of. it. Sadly, Freitas isn't able to do that

 

Freitas fans: You are being silly. Attention right? That's what you want I mean? Or is this a joke? This is a joke right?

 

Me: Nope

 

Freitas fans: You're a joke.

 

Me: Sadly the jokes on you comrade. I'm sorry that these truths hurt you, it's not my intention to cause any harm. I know you're a big Freitas fan so you should rejoice in the fact that the current set up of the sport favors your favorite fighter.

 

Freitas fans: Favors how?

 

Me: Oh, the fact that there are so many weight classes helps hide the fact that he isn't all that he's cracked up to be. Truth be told, there's a few guys at the weight below and above that would beat him. He's able to avoid these guys because of this fact. I'm not saying he's afraid, just that he's lucky. If there were only 8 weight classes and one title per weight like in the past, he probably would never even be a world champion. A truly elite guy like Mayweather can compete against the best from all eras. If we had a tournament that included all the greats of the past, a guy like Mayweather would be competitive with anybody and place high, the same can't be said for Freitas. He probably would never make the finals if we re-boxed the tournament 10 times.

 

Freitas fans: Nobody here agrees with you. It's useless trying to debate you on anything. You won't listen. Freitas is a serious threat to beat anybody from any era. He's not just your average world champ. He's knocking out solid competition. 35-0 (31 KOs) is amazing. He's a 2 time KO artist of the year, none of the "elite boxers" that you talk about have done that.

 

Me: Whatever.

 

*Few years later. Freitas has taken multiple losses and is out of the p4p top 10. Meanwhile, Mayweather is undefeated and his recognized as #1 p4p in every major boxing publication.

 

Me: Freitas fans where are you? What happened? Your guy was outclassed just like I told you, right? How come he couldn't switch styles mid-fight? He wasn't to versatile was he?

 

Crickets

 

Me: Sigh

 

 

 

Me: Freitas fans where are you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Go outside and get some sun Mr!

It's time for a shower actually. I just couldn't pass up my Askren=Freitas post. It's darn near the perfect comparison. Every era this same type of argument comes up. In the late 60s/early 70s Freitas = Rick Sanders. Mid 70s it was Schalles. 80s Mills. Mid 200s it was Askren.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bigmik is right.

hes always right.

even when hes wrong hes right.

askren is not elite.

that means anyone and everyone he's beaten is less than not elite.

that also means everyone that was competing in division 1 ncaa wrestling during the same years as him are also less than elite.

even though he was on the olympic team in 2008 hes not elite.

that means everyone in the usa at 74k is not elite.

if you disagree its ok because that just means your not the "right person"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bigmik is right.

hes always right.

even when hes wrong hes right.

askren is not elite.

that means anyone and everyone he's beaten is less than not elite.

that also means everyone that was competing in division 1 ncaa wrestling during the same years as him are also less than elite.

even though he was on the olympic team in 2008 hes not elite.

that means everyone in the usa at 74k is not elite.

if you disagree its ok because that just means your not the "right person"

I'm not sure why you are scandalized by the fact that very few people belong to the elite category. This is true for nearly everything.

 

Elite composers: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Chopin

 

Sprinters: Bolt, Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, ?

 

Wrestling coaches: Gable, Gallagher, Cael, Griffith, Roderick, Cael, Smith, Brands, J. Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why you are scandalized by the fact that very few people belong to the elite category. This is true for nearly everything.

Elite composers: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Chopin

Sprinters: Bolt, Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, ?

Wrestling coaches: Gable, Gallagher, Cael, Griffith, Roderick, Cael, Smith, Brands, J. Rob

I didn't scandalized anything. I agreed with pretty much everything you wrote in your previous posts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing troll work.  He even recreated ANOTHER argument in an unrelated sport where he was clearly right according to the right people to bolster how right he is here according to the right people.

It's not troll work. There's a lot of truth to what I say. People may not like it, but it's the truth just the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing troll work.  He even recreated ANOTHER argument in an unrelated sport where he was clearly right according to the right people to bolster how right he is here according to the right people.

Oh you didn't know? Bigmik speaks the truth and nothing but the truth. Even when he lies he speaks the truth! I have yet to find a post where he was wrong even once! And even when he was wrong he was right. All you have to do is ask the right people!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are styles that have the ceiling of beating every type of wrestler consistently, and styles that can be successful against all but the top 1%. You guys can argue amongst yourselves all you want about this. Call me names. Mock. Bloviate. Cry. Start clubs . Wear curly afro wigs in solidarity. And this will remain true whether you like it or not.

 

 

Two wrestlers walk in a room, one is thoroughly entrenched in "Cael style", the other "Askren style". An elite coach will look at the former and say to himself, "The sky is the limit", and to the latter, "I'll just have to do the best with what I've got".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are styles that have the ceiling of beating every type of wrestler consistently, and styles that can be successful against all but the top 1%. You guys can argue amongst yourselves all you want about this. Call me names. Mock. Bloviate. Cry. Start clubs . Wear curly afro wigs in solidarity. And this will remain true whether you like it or not.

 

 

Two wrestlers walk in a room, one is thoroughly entrenched in "Cael style", the other "Askren style". An elite coach will look at the former and say to himself, "The sky is the limit", and to the latter, "I'll just have to do the best with what I've got".

You are right about this.  Askren was a guy who looked good because of margin of victory, but he also struggled to get to his own offense.  I remember the NCAA tournament of his first title he saw Wes Roberts of OU in the first round and barely won because Roberts wouldn't do anything.  He just sat in neutral and didn't allow any scrambles to be created.  A little like Hazewinkel vs Simmons for the Olympics in 2012, except Roberts didn't pull it off.

 

And yes, all things equal, the 'Cael' style as you called it is the higher ceiling.  But not everyone who wrestles the Cael style is better than everyone who wrestles the 'Askren' style.  I wish the guy with the sound fundamentals won because I like that style, but guys like Askren and Eirman can occasionally make their low ceiling style work so well that they beat 'better' guys.  Askren was able to do that to the tune of 4 finals, 2 NCAA titles, and an olympic appearance in a style that is anathema to everything he did well (freestyle).  

 

So no, Askren will never be in the class of a guy like Cael, and the guys like Cael will almost always break down the funk that guys like Askren use, but occasionally a guy like that does it so well he is near the top of that 2nd tier.  Askren was that guy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boconell,

 

Yes a guy with a conventional "Cael style" will not always beat someone with an "Askren style", nor is he always better, especially if they don't have the similar talent levels. But at the highest levels, at the same talent level, the "Cael" style is preferable. That's why coaches will always teach that style. The Sanders, Askren, Mills, etc. wll always meet its kryptonite at the highest levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...