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jmachinder

Mens' FS Team Race

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We had 25 points going into Day 2 (9 from Gilman, 8 from Cox, 8 from Qwiz)  Russia had 23 (9 from Rash, 8 from Valiev, 5 from Khizriev)

 

Today we have 27 more points with our three finalists for a grand total of 52 points.

 

Russia got 23 more points with Sadulaev and Tsab. in the finals and Gogaev going for fifth.  They may also have gotten a point at 70KG for making the quarters and thus finishing top ten with a tech.  That would be 47 points.  

 

We can  get three more points with wins the finals .  

 

Russia can get 4 more points with two wins in the finals and their bronze.  

 

It may already be over.  The only unknown is Russia's placement at 70.  If he only got one team point, it's over.  If he finished 9th with his one win somehow, then all Russia can do is tie.  

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They are starting at 74kg. If Burroughs wins that, we will just need one more win.

 

I see us as underdogs at 70 and 74 (slight) and 50/50 at 97.

 

Crazy to think that with 6 medals and 4 finalists, we are underdogs.

 

Also demonstrates how that one corrupt call may very well cost is the tournament.

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They are starting at 74kg. If Burroughs wins that, we will just need one more win.

 

I see us as underdogs at 70 and 74 (slight) and 50/50 at 97.

 

Crazy to think that with 6 medals and 4 finalists, we are underdogs.

 

Also demonstrates how that one corrupt call may very well cost is the tournament.

Yeah, Russia sitting as slight favorite IMO.  

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I'll combine two thoughts here on tournament format and team score...

 

How does keeping team score make sense with this bracket format?  The lucky loser from Georgia just earned 6 points for teching a Chinese wrestler and squeaking by Nestor Taffur.  

 

I understand he was close with Green, but, again, what did he actually accomplish today to earn 6 points other than lose to Green?

Edited by Voice_of_the_Quakers

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I'll combine two thoughts here on tournament format and team score...

 

How does keeping team score make sense with this bracket format?  The lucky loser from Georgia just earned 6 points for teching a Chinese wrestler and squeaking by Nestor Taffur.  

 

I understand he was close with Green, but, again, what did he actually accomplish today to earn 6 points other than lose to Green?

Because it adds excitement and is better than nothing. They don't do full wrestle backs to save time, and after dealing with this 4AM start time I'm ok with that.

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Because it adds excitement and is better than nothing. They don't do full wrestle backs to save time, and after dealing with this 4AM start time I'm ok with that.

 

Better than nothing?  You set a very low bar...

 

It also runs counter to UWW's decisions to create rankings and seedings, both forced on them by the IOC, of course.

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Better than nothing?  You set a very low bar...

 

It also runs counter to UWW's decisions to create rankings and seedings, both forced on them by the IOC, of course.

The options are abbreviated wrestle backs or none at all.  I guess they could take the two semifinal losers and just let them wrestle for bronze. Full wrestle backs aren't an option because it would take too much time.  It would add an additional 2 days to the 6 day event.  

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The options are abbreviated wrestle backs or none at all.  I guess they could take the two semifinal losers and just let them wrestle for bronze. Full wrestle backs aren't an option because it would take too much time.  It would add an additional 2 days to the 6 day event.  

 

What's wrong with adding two days, anyway?  The new tournament format for next year, as well as 10 weight classes per style, is already going to require multiple changes: more mats, larger venues, maybe even separate venues. So, why not add full double-elimination, as well?  

 

Since everybody is referencing our last FS title in 1995 in Atlanta, which I was at, because I'm old...the 1995 FS Worlds featured 10 weight classes competed over four days on three mats with full double-elimination.

 

Forget about the Olympics, because the tournament format there is not entirely in UWW's hands there.  During non-Olympic tournaments, UWW can format their events however they want.  If "time" is the reason why there can't be full double-elimination, it's only because the UWW says so, not because there isn't enough.

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What's wrong with adding two days, anyway?  The new tournament format for next year, as well as 10 weight classes per style, is already going to require multiple changes: more mats, larger venues, maybe even separate venues. So, why not add full double-elimination, as well?  

 

Since everybody is referencing our last FS title in 1995 in Atlanta, which I was at, because I'm old...the 1995 FS Worlds featured 10 weight classes competed over four days on three mats with full double-elimination.

 

Forget about the Olympics, because the tournament format there is not entirely in UWW's hands there.  During non-Olympic tournaments, UWW can format their events however they want.  If "time" is the reason why there can't be full double-elimination, it's only because the UWW says so, not because there isn't enough.

 

It just doesn't seem worth it to add extra days to the event to get the 5th to 10th placings correct. In the current format, the third best wrestler in the tournament is one of the two bronze medalists, and 5th through 10th is determined largely by luck.  Yes, it does slightly impact the team race, but the cost of full wresltebacks just isn't worth it.  

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Because it adds excitement and is better than nothing. They don't do full wrestle backs to save time, and after dealing with this 4AM start time I'm ok with that.

 

I've never liked the way they do brackets internationally. I like double elimination like in US Folk.

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It just doesn't seem worth it to add extra days to the event to get the 5th to 10th placings correct. In the current format, the third best wrestler in the tournament is one of the two bronze medalists, and 5th through 10th is determined largely by luck.  Yes, it does slightly impact the team race, but the cost of full wresltebacks just isn't worth it.  

They're already going to 2 day tournaments next year.  With no mandatory rests between matches you could do full wrestle backs very quickly.  

 

Of course you might not have time for the dancing Eifel Tower though.

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It just doesn't seem worth it to add extra days to the event to get the 5th to 10th placings correct. In the current format, the third best wrestler in the tournament is one of the two bronze medalists, and 5th through 10th is determined largely by luck.  Yes, it does slightly impact the team race, but the cost of full wresltebacks just isn't worth it.

 

Not always true. Sometimes the best three wrestlers are all on the same side of the bracket and one of them doesn't even get a chance to go in the repachage. It has happened and does happen more than you think especially with bottom loaded brackets. Sure the repachage is better than nothing but there's no argument that full double elimination would be better and entirely possible.

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 Double elimination clearly allows for loaded quarter's losers a chance to get back in (like Zain would have gotten Bronze imo, had he had the chance) but this is the very reason why it's not used-so the under-dogs can medal. If all the studs get packed onto one side somebody can slip in; also why there are 2 bronze medals (increase the chances that they can medal). I don't agree with the set-up because I'm more a purest (find the best 3 wrestlers, by using double-elimination; only 3 medals), but I understand what they are doing, to appease more countries possibly. And the best man should come out on top no matter what format is used.

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the reasons why UWW doesn't implement obviously good ideas is because of the same reasons the NCAA doesn't implement obviously good ideas. because they are cumbersome institutions hamstrung by powerful constituents with competing interests, and are further bogged down by intrinsic bureaucratic inertia and external stakeholders that arbitrarily limit their potential options.

 

maybe one day both will be free from some, if not all, of these encumbrances, but until then lets not be naive about why positive changes aren't more rapidly forthcoming. 

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