Flying-Tiger 617 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) Time for FT's updated All-Time Rankings. Kyle Snyder jumps 17 wrestlers after another World Gold and NCAA Title. Jordan Burroughs passes the late great Dave Schultz and moves into third place, nipping at the heals of John Smith. Welcome to the rankings Nick Gwiazdowski and Thomas Gilman. Olympic Champion = 7 points World Champion = 6 points Olympic Silver/Bronze = 5 points World Silver/Bronze = 4 points NCAA National Title = 2 points NCAA Finalist = 1 point NCAA All-American = 0.5 point Bruce Baumgartner (70) 2 Olympic Gold/3 World Gold/1 Olympic Silver/3 World Silver/1 Olympic Bronze/3 World Bronze/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA Finals John Smith (43) 2 Olympic Gold/4 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Jordan Burroughs (39.5) 1 Olympic Gold/4 World Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA Dave Schultz (36.5) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/3 World Silver/2 World Bronze/1 NCAA Title/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA Lee Kemp (29) 3 World Gold/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Rick Sanders (29) 1 World Gold/2 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Mark Schultz (25) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/3 NCAA Titles Kyle Snyder (24) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Kenny Monday (22) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 NCAA Title/ 2 NCAA Finals Terry Brands (22) 2 World Gold/1 Olympic Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Kevin Jackson (21.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 World Gold/1 NCAA Final/3 NCAA AA Lincoln Mcllravy (20) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Chris Campbell (20) 1 Olympic Bronze/ 1 World Gold/1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Ben Peterson (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles John Peterson (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze Wayne Wells (20) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/1 World Silver/1 NCAA Title/ 1 NCAA Final Barry Davis (19.5) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA Tom Brands (19.5) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/3 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA Sammie Henson (19.5) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA Cael Sanderson (19) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Silver/4 NCAA Titles Dan Gable (18) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Kurt Angle (18) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final Melvin Douglas (18) 1 World Gold/1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles Greg Gibson (18) 2 World Silver/1 World Silver (Greco)/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Finals Jake Varner (17) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/2 NCAA Finals J'Den Cox (15.5) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA Cary Kolat (14.5) 1 World Silver/1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA Joe Williams (14.5) 2 World Bronze/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA Ed Banach (14) 1 Olympic Gold/3 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Finals Logan Stieber (14) 1 World Gold/ 4 NCAA Titles Zeke Jones (13) 1 Olympic Silver/1 World Gold/1 NCAA Final/2 NCAA AA Randy Lewis (12.5) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA Stephen Neal (11.5) 1 World Gold/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA Bobby Weaver (11.5) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Silver/1 NCAA AA Lou Banach (11) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles Bill Smith (11) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Titles Nate Carr (11) 1 Olympic Bronze/3 NCAA Titles Stephen Abas (11) 1 Olympic Silver/3 NCAA Titles Kendall Cross (10) 1 Olympic Gold/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA AA Doug Blubaugh (10) 1 Olympic Gold/1 NCAA Title/2 NCAA AA James Green (10) 1 World Silver/ 1 World Bronze/ 4 NCAA AA Jake Herbert (9.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA Final/1 NCAA AA Nick Gwiazdowski (9.5) 1 World Bronze/ 2 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA Final/ 1 NCAA AA Brandon Slay (9) 1 Olympic Gold/2 NCAA Finals Don Pritzlaff (9) 1 World Bronze/2 NCAA Titles/ 2 NCAA AA Coleman Scott (9) 1 Olympic Bronze/1 NCAA Title/1 NCAA Final/2 NCAA AA Bill Zadick (8.5) 1 World Gold/1 NCAA Title/ 1 NCAA AA Kerry McCoy (8.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/ 1 NCAA AA Royce Alger (8.5) 1 World Silver/2 NCAA Titles/1 NCAA AA Tervel Dlagnev(8) 2 World Bronze Henry Cejuda (7) 1 Olympic Gold Thomas Gilman (6) 1 World Silver/ 1 NCAA Final/ 2 NCAA AA Mike Zadick (5.5) 1 World Silver/ 3 NCAA AA *Honorable Mention: Yojiro Uetake-Obata (20) 2 Olympic Gold (Japan)/3 NCAA Titles Edited September 3, 2017 by Flying-Tiger 6 Buckeyebison, Buckxell, GoNotQuietly and 3 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigTimeFan 1,043 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 I love these sorts of lists. Thanks FT! A few questions s / comments : 1. What's the logic of giving the same number of points for Bronze as silver. These days a bronze (two of them) is more common and easier to come by. I'd argue that someone who consistently makes the finals of the worlds is better than someone who consistently gets a bronze. Five silvers is better than five bronze. I get that in any *given* year it can be bad luck getting the best guy on your side of the bracket but over time it's different. I'd score a half-point more for silver. 2. I think a full point more for Olympic years is too much. Yes it's true that Olympics tend to have tougher competition and these days there's fewer weight classes but systematically accounting for this suggests you account for everything else. But for example you don't knock 1984 and don't add points for post USSR breakup. I'd make the margin 1/2 point. 3. Your system rewards consistency over results. It's tough to account for but it leads to some questions. For example if someone makes ten world teams of which two are Olympic teams and earns a bronze in all of them he's earn 4x8+5x2=42 points. Throw in an NCAA title and he's ahead of John Smith. I would argue that such a person would not rate higher than Smith). Now some fun observations based on your system: 1. If Kyle wins ncaas again and worlds next year he edges ahead of Kemp to fourth place. 2. If JB gets a bronze or better next year he moves to number two on the all time FT list. Reason enough to stay. 3. Snyder at 24 points needs 46 more points to catch Big Bruce. If he wrestles 2018, 19, 20 and wins gold in each he gets 19 more points. Throw in an NCAA title that is 21 more being him to 45 ahead of John Smith by virtue of more NCAA titles. What would it take to catch Bruce? He's need 25 more points to tie him. That could happen if he wins gold 2021-24 at which point he'd be 29 years old, JB's current age! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buckeyebison 87 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 I like this points system. Maybe post-two bronze system should count as .5 less? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PSUMike 445 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 Cox has 3 NCAA titles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishhook 142 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 Its not perfect of course, but its a really well compiled list. A few things that seem obvious that are missing: World team member should be worth the same as NCAA title or finalist. One thing it kind if hurts is those guys who just miss the world team because someone so good beat them for the team spot. How many more points would Brands or Kendall Cross have without each other in the way? Even more so, how many more points would Dave Schultz have, without dying in an olympic year where he appeared a real medal threat, and further K Monday keeping off a few teams and winning the world title. Schultz woulda had about 5-10 more points at least without those variables. So that is the part that isn't perfect about the list. BUt I like any list so... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silver-medal 670 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 I like the point system but 1980 and 1984 are problematic. The 1984 Olympic medalists won a world JV tournament and have inflated point values. The 1980 wrestlers--specifically the great Lee Kemp--earned no points. I think you have to throw out 1984. And Kemp? He was favored to win Gold which would have made him a 4x world champion instead of 3. He's probably seven points higher than you have him. 2 TheOhioState and Peso reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headache 126 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 Any point system that yields these scores Bruce - 70 points, John Smith @ 43, Burroughs @ 39.5 and Gable @18 points is not credible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hofman19 24 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 Shouldn't Dake (8) be on the list for his four NCAA titles? Or to be eligible, do you need a World/Olympic appearance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrestlingFan89 246 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 Brandon Eggum should be tied with Gilman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hammerlockthree 2,104 Report post Posted August 27, 2017 I now believe Snyder will be considered the greatest ever by the time he is done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flying-Tiger 617 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 Brandon Eggum should be tied with Gilman. Can you give me his results so I can add him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headache 126 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 Cael gets 8 points for being an undefeated four time NCAA champion? Ha, ha. Sanderson ranked 20th? Cable ranked 21th? Until recently with the reduction in weight classes, what is the justification for awarding a bonus point for olympic medals? Where's Dan Hodge and his 10 points? [How in the hell do you leave Hodge off?] How about Henry Whittenberg - olmpic gold and silver plus over a 300 match post-high school winning streak? [Whittenberg was our Medved]. Needless to say, IMO, lists like this yield a whole lot of stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PSUMike 445 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 Any point system that yields these scores Bruce - 70 points, John Smith @ 43, Burroughs @ 39.5 and Gable @18 points is not credible. Bruce competed on the international level for far longer than Smith, Burroughs, or Gable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maligned 510 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 Cael gets 8 points for being an undefeated four time NCAA champion? Ha, ha. Sanderson ranked 20th? Cable ranked 21th? Until recently with the reduction in weight classes, what is the justification for awarding a bonus point for olympic medals? Where's Dan Hodge and his 10 points? [How in the hell do you leave Hodge off?] How about Henry Whittenberg - olmpic gold and silver plus over a 300 match post-high school winning streak? [Whittenberg was our Medved]. Needless to say, IMO, lists like this yield a whole lot of stupid. There are 2 ways to rank people all-time: based on some pre-determined point system or based on feelings. We may not agree with how things fall, but using a point system isn't in itself stupid. It gives one type of perspective. Please outline your feelings-based approach. 1 Buckxell reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KTG119 820 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 I don't necessarily agree with the points assigned that Flying - Tiger uses, but whether it's points based or feelings based none of these things are perfect. I do appreciate Flying - Tiger taking the time to do this and for updating so quickly after most event events. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headache 126 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 There are 2 ways to rank people all-time: based on some pre-determined point system or based on feelings. We may not agree with how things fall, but using a point system isn't in itself stupid. It gives one type of perspective. Please outline your feelings-based approach. Why in the world does a ranking system have to be either 100% objective or entirely feelings based? I would think a little of both would get more accurate results. Most experts believe Jim Brown was the best football player ever. Yet, Frank Gore and Curtis Martin are better according to statistics. Dan Gable had a very short freestyle career, as did Cael, so according to objective criterion, they are down graded to a ridiculously low rank. If Hodge and Whittenberg come in at about 10 points then I'd say the point system is seriously flawed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plasmodium 1,766 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 headache -- I, for one, am interested in your GOAT list. Please post it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headache 126 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 headache -- I, for one, am interested in your GOAT list. Please post it. John Smith Cael Sanderson Jordan Burroughs Dan Gable Bruce Baumgartner Lee Kemp Kyle Snyder Dan Hodge Mark Schultz Henry Whittenberg Sanderson and Smith are the best USA wrestlers I've see - I could flip those two. Snyder will rise. Baumgartner was a great, great push and shove heavyweight, so he's not at the top in my book. Whittenberg gets little attention but he won 300 straight matches and didn't even wrestle in high school - he was a small heavyweight like Medved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GranbyTroll 442 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 John Smith Cael Sanderson Jordan Burroughs Dan Gable Bruce Baumgartner Lee Kemp Kyle Snyder Dan Hodge Mark Schultz Henry Whittenberg Sanderson and Smith are the best USA wrestlers I've see - I could flip those two. Snyder will rise. Baumgartner was a great, great push and shove heavyweight, so he's not at the top in my book. Whittenberg gets little attention but he won 300 straight matches and didn't even wrestle in high school - he was a small heavyweight like Medved. I respect your opinion, but it's wrong. Smith Burroughs Sanderson Snyder (could pass Sanderson very quickly.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PRyan2012 344 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 I respect your opinion, but it's wrong. Smith Burroughs Sanderson Snyder (could pass Sanderson very quickly.) In my mind those are the 4 best I have seen wrestle at all levels in my lifetime. I started watching in late 70s. I just added Snyder after Saturday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PRyan2012 344 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) What about adding coaching title points? Since greats like Sanderson and Gable retired so young. Both had two maybe three more cycles left the way their bodies held up-neither were ever injured! Edited August 28, 2017 by PRyan2012 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FATMANROLL 54 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 Why are NCAA results relevant but US Open and WTT/OTT results not? 1 Fishhook reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PRyan2012 344 Report post Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Good point about trials! World teams is major! Ask Taylor or Dake!!! Sometimes harder than the worlds themselves-Ask Varner in 15 and 16. How many out there have made four or more world/Olympic teams? Not as many as you think. Edited August 28, 2017 by PRyan2012 1 Fishhook reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrestlingFan89 246 Report post Posted August 29, 2017 Can you give me his results so I can add him? Brandon Eggum World silver, 1x finalist, 2x AA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vsnej 192 Report post Posted August 29, 2017 Yes Olympic/World team trials champs got to be worth something in this ranking 1 Fishhook reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
