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USA All-Time Ranking Update

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What about adding coaching title points? Since greats like Sanderson and Gable retired so young. Both had two maybe three more cycles left the way their bodies held up-neither were ever injured!

retiring young to coach is nothing to encourage

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Jim Scherr - 14 points

Bill Scherr- 26 points

Dennis Koslowski 10 points, Oly Silver/Bronze x 2

 

Add that to Lewis' 12.5 points and McIlravy's 20 points....looks like SD does pretty well, lb for lb.

Edited by BadgerMon

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Greg Gibson 19 points, Oly Silver, World Silver/Bronze x 3, NCAA Finalist x 2

Rulon Gardner 18.5 points, Oly Gold, Oly Bronze, World Gold, NCAA AA

Matt Ghaffari 17 points, Oly Silver, World Silver/Bronze x 3

Dennis Hall 15 points, Oly Silver, World Gold, World Bronze

Stan Dziedzic 14.5 points, Oly Bronze, World Gold, NCAA Champ, NCAA Finalist, NCAA AA

Lloyd Keaser 12 points, Oly Silver, World Gold, NCAA AA x 2

Dennis Koslowski 10 points, Oly Silver/Bronze x 2

James Martinez 10 Points, Oly Bronze, World Bronze, NCAA AA x 2

Brandon Paulson 9.5 points, Oly Silver, World Silver, NCAA AA

Chris Taylor, 9 Points, Oly Bronze, 2 NCAA Champs

Matt Lindland 9 Points, Oly Silver, World Silver

Steve Fraser 8 points, Oly Gold, NCAA AA x 2

Pat Smith and Kyle Dake, 8 points each  4 NCAA Champs

Alex Dieringer 6.5 points, 3 NCAA Champs, 1 NCAA AA

Ben Asken  6 points  2 NCAA Champs, 2 NCAA Finalists

Edited by jchapman

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Greg Gibson 19 points, Oly Silver, World Silver/Bronze x 3, NCAA Finalist x 2

Rulon Gardner 18.5 points, Oly Gold, Oly Bronze, World Gold, NCAA AA

Matt Ghaffari 17 points, Oly Silver, World Silver/Bronze x 3

Dennis Hall 15 points, Oly Silver, World Gold, World Bronze

Stan Dziedzic 14.5 points, Oly Bronze, World Gold, NCAA Champ, NCAA Finalist, NCAA AA

Lloyd Keaser 12 points, Oly Silver, World Gold, NCAA AA x 2

Dennis Koslowski 10 points, Oly Silver/Bronze x 2

James Martinez 10 Points, Oly Bronze, World Bronze, NCAA AA x 2

Brandon Paulson 9.5 points, Oly Silver, World Silver, NCAA AA

Chris Taylor, 9 Points, Oly Bronze, 2 NCAA Champs

Matt Lindland 9 Points, Oly Silver, World Silver

Steve Fraser 8 points, Oly Gold, NCAA AA x 2

Pat Smith and Kyle Dake, 8 points each 4 NCAA Champs

Alex Dieringer 6.5 points, 3 NCAA Champs, 1 NCAA AA

Ben Asken 6 points 2 NCAA Champs, 2 NCAA Finalists

Nice Edited by Housebuye

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What about adding coaching title points? Since greats like Sanderson and Gable retired so young. Both had two maybe three more cycles left the way their bodies held up-neither were ever injured!

Gable never injured?

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Speaking of Sanderson, I always wondered why he stopped wrestling so early. I always suspected that to get himself ready for the World's and Olympics he had to push himself harder than he had ever had to push himself before and due to this, he probably was done both physically and emotionally once he won his Olympic Gold.

As far as Gable is concerned, I haven't a clue, but I suspect it might be along the same lines as Cael, that to win and be the best in the World he had to train so unbelievably hard, that in the end there was nothing really left.

If these premises are true, then it just goes to demonstrate the absolute true greatness of guys/gals that are on this list with a treasure trove of medals.

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There was very little money to be made in amateur wrestling when Gable won the World and Olympics back to back, without a close match. The only way to make "real" money was to go into coaching, which he did at age 24. In the 1972 Olympic regional trials in Iowa City,he won all 6 matches by pin but outscored the six foes 120-1 before pinning them. In the final trials in Anoka, MN, he went 7-0, giving up just one point.  In his final 2 matches, Dan beat Lloyd Keaser 22-0 and 11-0 (and a year later, Lloyd was world champion). Then in the 1972 Olympics Gable gave up zero points in his 6 matches.  That means in his last 19 matches against the best wrestlers in the U.S. and the world, he  gave up two points. A year later, he was lured out of retirement to wrestle the Soviet Union's best at his weight, Pavel Pinigan, and Dan beat him 12-2 in Madison Square Garden. Dan simply had no incentive to keep wrestling with two back-to-back world titles and very little financial reward. It was years later before an American wrestler could make some decent money by staying in the sport... which was a big step forward in keeping our best wrestlers like Bruce and John in competition.

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There was very little money to be made in amateur wrestling when Gable won the World and Olympics back to back, without a close match. The only way to make "real" money was to go into coaching, which he did at age 24. In the 1972 Olympic regional trials in Iowa City,he won all 6 matches by pin but outscored the six foes 120-1 before pinning them. In the final trials in Anoka, MN, he went 7-0, giving up just one point.  In his final 2 matches, Dan beat Lloyd Keaser 22-0 and 11-0 (and a year later, Lloyd was world champion). Then in the 1972 Olympics Gable gave up zero points in his 6 matches.  That means in his last 19 matches against the best wrestlers in the U.S. and the world, he  gave up two points. A year later, he was lured out of retirement to wrestle the Soviet Union's best at his weight, Pavel Pinigan, and Dan beat him 12-2 in Madison Square Garden. Dan simply had no incentive to keep wrestling with two back-to-back world titles and very little financial reward. It was years later before an American wrestler could make some decent money by staying in the sport... which was a big step forward in keeping our best wrestlers like Bruce and John in competition.

 

Great synopsis for those of us not lucky enough to have witnessed or followed his brief international career while it was happening.

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Gable and Sanderson probably has the most pressure to win gold of any wrestlers in American history. The only wrestlers that got real mainstream coverage going into the Games (Rulon became a celebrity after the big upste)

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

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Gable and Sanderson probably has the most pressure to win gold of any wrestlers in American history. The only wrestlers that got real mainstream coverage going into the Games (Rulon became a celebrity after the big upste)

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

I think we can now add Snyder to that list. Team title was in the balance.

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I think we can now add Snyder to that list. Team title was in the balance.

Yeah but do people outside of wrestling really know him or what just happened? Gable was on the Wide World of Sports and SI did a feature on Cael.

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

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Good points, pjm46. Gable was a media darling in 1972 . He was on 3 popular TV shows of the era -- "To Tell the Truth", "The Dick Cavett Show" and "The Superstars". He also was the subject of two books (one by Russ Smith called "THE Legend" and one by Mike Chapman called "Two Guys named Dan") and was featured in Frank Gifford's popular book, "Gifford on Courage". Gable was talked about frequently in several forms of media at the time, even on Monday Night Football occasionally. Then his coaching career kept his name in the public view for another 2 decades. Media attention took him to another level.

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According to the list, Terry Brands is better than Tom Brands.  He has always been miffed that he didn't get that Olympic Gold and match his brother, has said his brother was better than him.

 

Well, this should make him happier.  He is better than Tom.

 

mspart

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Here is a thought...how about those that don't like Tiger's list, create your own and list the criteria you used to rank them besides the, "I saw them wrestle and I like them" (spoken in a caveman's voice)...otherwise shut your yapper!!

Edited by BigBrog

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Here is a thought...how about those that don't like Tiger's list, create your own and list the criteria you used to rank them besides the, "I saw them wrestle and I like them" (spoken in a caveman's voice)...otherwise shut your yapper!!

I think the reason for lists like this as well as rankings and such is to stimulate conversation

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John Smith 6 straight world titles and two Olympic golds.

 

Right now everybody else is jockeying for second place. 

 

My vote for about the last 18 years on this forum. 

 

The better debate is the best Soviet/Russian/Unified team wrestler (freestyle)... wrestler ever. 

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John Smith 6 straight world titles and two Olympic golds.

 

Right now everybody else is jockeying for second place. 

 

My vote for about the last 18 years on this forum. 

 

The better debate is the best Soviet/Russian/Unified team wrestler (freestyle)... wrestler ever. 

 

If Burroughs wins it next year does he become the best?  What will it take?

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I love these sorts of lists. Thanks FT!

 

A few questions s / comments :

 

1. What's the logic of giving the same number of points for Bronze as silver. These days a bronze (two of them) is more common and easier to come by. I'd argue that someone who consistently makes the finals of the worlds is better than someone who consistently gets a bronze. Five silvers is better than five bronze. I get that in any *given* year it can be bad luck getting the best guy on your side of the bracket but over time it's different. I'd score a half-point more for silver.

 

2. I think a full point more for Olympic years is too much. Yes it's true that Olympics tend to have tougher competition and these days there's fewer weight classes but systematically accounting for this suggests you account for everything else. But for example you don't knock 1984 and don't add points for post USSR breakup. I'd make the margin 1/2 point.

 

3. Your system rewards consistency over results. It's tough to account for but it leads to some questions. For example if someone makes ten world teams of which two are Olympic teams and earns a bronze in all of them he's earn 4x8+5x2=42 points. Throw in an NCAA title and he's ahead of John Smith. I would argue that such a person would not rate higher than Smith).

 

Now some fun observations based on your system:

 

1. If Kyle wins ncaas again and worlds next year he edges ahead of Kemp to fourth place.

 

2. If JB gets a bronze or better next year he moves to number two on the all time FT list. Reason enough to stay.

 

3. Snyder at 24 points needs 46 more points to catch Big Bruce. If he wrestles 2018, 19, 20 and wins gold in each he gets 19 more points. Throw in an NCAA title that is 21 more being him to 45 ahead of John Smith by virtue of more NCAA titles.

 

What would it take to catch Bruce? He's need 25 more points to tie him. That could happen if he wins gold 2021-24 at which point he'd be 29 years old, JB's current age!

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Great list, FT.  Here's an addition: George Mehnert, our first wrestler to win two Olympic Golds (14 points).

 

And, since he wrestled prior to the establishment of the NCAA tournament, perhaps he should get some points for his AAU finishes (6x champ & 1x runner-up).  In that era, an AAU tournament champ was the de facto national amateur champ.  I have even read that several top wrestlers skipped the early NCAA's, opting for the more prestigious (at that time) AAU tournaments.

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I disagree. I run a business and if my business model looked like Bruce B I would be much happier than John Smith model. Bruce B's longevity is legend with winning 5 Golds and 13 medals. Smith should have stayed another cycle but could he have won another medal? he was hurt before he retired in 1992. Any list I have ever made of all time greats Bruce is always #1. Now I think there are a doze n or more wrestlers better including Smith but you can not argue with results. Bruce B did it for 4 cycles! About as long as you could possible wrestle. Smith wrestled a cycle and a half-no comparison.  

Edited by PRyan2012

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