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USA All-Time Ranking Update

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Robin Reed, who many wrestling historians consider one of the greatest amateurs ever, would garner 7 points for his 1924 Olympic Gold.  This would place him tied with Cejuda on the list, a point behind Dlagnev, and only one point ahead of Gilman.  Way too low, IMO.  But, I realize the difficulty in comparing wrestlers from different eras.  

 

Perhaps, in addition to (pre-NCAA)  AAU titles, points should be awarded for induction into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame (NWHOF).  After all, Reed's NWHOF bio states he was inducted "in recognition of his stature as one of the most dominant athletes the world has ever seen."

 

http://nwhof.org/stillwater/hall-of-fame/#type=hof&honoree=29

Edited by HurricaneWrestling

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Robin Reed, who many wrestling historians consider one of the greatest amateurs ever, would garner 7 points for his 1924 Olympic Gold.  This would place him tied with Cejuda on the list, a point behind Dlagnev, and only one point ahead of Gilman.  Way too low, IMO.  But, I realize the difficulty in comparing wrestlers from different eras.  

 

Perhaps, in addition to (pre-NCAA)  AAU titles, points should be awarded for induction into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame (NWHOF).  After all, Reed's NWHOF bio states he was inducted "in recognition of his stature as one of the most dominant athletes the world has ever seen."

 

http://nwhof.org/stillwater/hall-of-fame/#type=hof&honoree=29

 

And he supposedly could have won every weight

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Greg Gibson 19 points, Oly Silver, World Silver/Bronze x 3, NCAA Finalist x 2

Rulon Gardner 18.5 points, Oly Gold, Oly Bronze, World Gold, NCAA AA

Matt Ghaffari 17 points, Oly Silver, World Silver/Bronze x 3

Dennis Hall 15 points, Oly Silver, World Gold, World Bronze

Stan Dziedzic 14.5 points, Oly Bronze, World Gold, NCAA Champ, NCAA Finalist, NCAA AA

Lloyd Keaser 12 points, Oly Silver, World Gold, NCAA AA x 2

Dennis Koslowski 10 points, Oly Silver/Bronze x 2

James Martinez 10 Points, Oly Bronze, World Bronze, NCAA AA x 2

Brandon Paulson 9.5 points, Oly Silver, World Silver, NCAA AA

Chris Taylor, 9 Points, Oly Bronze, 2 NCAA Champs

Matt Lindland 9 Points, Oly Silver, World Silver

Steve Fraser 8 points, Oly Gold, NCAA AA x 2

Pat Smith and Kyle Dake, 8 points each  4 NCAA Champs

Alex Dieringer 6.5 points, 3 NCAA Champs, 1 NCAA AA

Ben Asken  6 points  2 NCAA Champs, 2 NCAA Finalists

Darryl Burley 6 points, Mark Branch 6 points, Duane Goldman 5 points

Edited by BadgerMon

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Gable never injured?

 

Glad someone else picked up on this.  Given that Gable's wrestling career is arguably the most documented and publicized to the wider world, this was an amazingly uninformed comment.  One thing I always wonder about with men in his age group, particularly with blowhard politicians (D or R), but also tough guy athletes, why didn't he get drafted and serve in the military?  In Gable's case, it is my understanding that even as he finished his college career, no military physician would sign off on his physical - his knees were wrecked, among other things.  I believe Gable said in an interview once, no, let's not dwell on my surgeries and all that, I had high school buddies who went overseas and came back worse than me...  I suppose Ray Brinzer, Cooch1 or others who went live with him could weigh in, but my understanding is when he went in the wrestling room he willed himself to ignore such things, but to say he never had injuries is wildly off base.

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I disagree. I run a business and if my business model looked like Bruce B I would be much happier than John Smith model. Bruce B's longevity is legend with winning 5 Golds and 13 medals. Smith should have stayed another cycle but could he have won another medal? he was hurt before he retired in 1992. Any list I have ever made of all time greats Bruce is always #1. Now I think there are a doze n or more wrestlers better including Smith but you can not argue with results. Bruce B did it for 4 cycles! About as long as you could possible wrestle. Smith wrestled a cycle and a half-no comparison.  

 

With all due respect, business goals are not always comparable to athletic goals.  I cannot imagine any world class athlete trading John Smith's career for Bruce B's. The most obvious, 6>5.  Far more staggering, though, 6>>2.  BB did win consecutive championships in 1992-93; Smith tripled that.  With each year, every one gunning for him, "I'll be the guy to take him down", and it never happened.  I never competed for a national championship much less world, but I'd guess most at that level would take six gold over 8 lesser medals.  One thing BB does have over Smith, his first and last championships came 12 years apart, which is pretty monumental. Thinking of this, recent interview with JS, they asked if he thinks Helen M will tie or surpass his string, and he had a great answer: "that's a bad question.  You win world titles one at a time.  You focus on just one, then when it's over, think about the next one."  And he did say, I hope she beats my record.

 

As far as continuing to compete while coaching, their two circumstances are not at all comparable.  If I recall, JS served as a quasi-interim head coach in 1992, during the Joe Seay/death penalty era at Okie State.  He had said since, I never should have done that, each goal takes a 100% commitment, Olympic athlete and head coach.  His dream job came open, he had to take it.  There was no guarantee they would keep the spot warm for him for another Olympic cycle - heck, his own brother Leroy may have gotten the job instead.  And as far as competing while coaching goes, Bruce had an ideal situation, with relatively low expectations.  "sure, keep wrestling, as long as we're top twenty and no one's in jail."  At OK State, though, a team runner up finish at NCAA's is not acceptable - very different expectations.  As a fan I wish Smith had competed a few more years, but he had to look at his life for another thirty years, not 2 or 3.

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I disagree. I run a business and if my business model looked like Bruce B I would be much happier than John Smith model. Bruce B's longevity is legend with winning 5 Golds and 13 medals. Smith should have stayed another cycle but could he have won another medal? he was hurt before he retired in 1992. Any list I have ever made of all time greats Bruce is always #1. Now I think there are a doze n or more wrestlers better including Smith but you can not argue with results. Bruce B did it for 4 cycles! About as long as you could possible wrestle. Smith wrestled a cycle and a half-no comparison.  

In my family I want my kids to love spending time with me and enjoy it.  So I want my wrestling opponents to love spending time with me and enjoy it.  See anyone can make dumb false equivalencies.

 

If you think Bruce's career is better that doesn't make you crazy.  He had an amazing career.  Nobody can force a longevity over peak argument, or vice versa, onto anyone else.  To each his own opinion.  But your business goals have nothing to do with anything though.  

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2 hours ago, de4856 said:

So, with another World's under our belt, (2019), where does JB, and Kyle now sit? Adeline Gray ? J'den, Dake? 

Kyle Snyder = 34 pts  5th place behind D Shultz ahead of Lee Kemp

K Dake = 20 pts in a 6 way tie fot 13th place with C Campbell, McIlravy, W Wells and both Peterson brothers

JB = 43.5 pts 2nd place behind BB 1/2 pt ahead of J Smith

J'Den = 27.5 - 8th place behind R Sanders and ahead of M Schultz

I am not sure where A Gray fits in but 5 world golds alone would be 30 points.

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Adeline Gray has 5 World Golds, worth 30, and 2 World Bronze worth 8, so she's at 38, at a minimum. I have no idea about her college career. 

David Taylor with his World Gold and his college career should be at 12. 

Gwizz should be at 13.5

Edited by de4856
Additional information

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On 9/2/2017 at 5:58 PM, boconnell said:

In my family I want my kids to love spending time with me and enjoy it.  So I want my wrestling opponents to love spending time with me and enjoy it.  See anyone can make dumb false equivalencies.

 

If you think Bruce's career is better that doesn't make you crazy.  He had an amazing career.  Nobody can force a longevity over peak argument, or vice versa, onto anyone else.  To each his own opinion.  But your business goals have nothing to do with anything though.  

I don’t understand the everyone can form their own opinion, but there are things you can and can’t use in forming your opinion mindset. Analogies are not direct comparisons. I’m guessing he used the analogy because in his opinion the longevity of Bruce continuing to medal 2 1/2 times longer than Smith is more impressive, as he prefers longevity of being the best or very very close to the best over a much shorter period of being the best. The analogy holds water.  

 

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On 8/27/2017 at 1:05 PM, Fishhook said:

Its not perfect of course, but its a really well compiled list.  A few things that seem obvious that are missing: World team member should be worth the same as NCAA title or finalist.  

 

One thing it kind if hurts is those guys who just miss the world team because someone so good beat them for the team spot. How many more points would Brands or Kendall Cross have without each other in the way?  Even more so, how many more points would Dave Schultz have, without dying in an olympic year where he appeared a real medal threat, and further K Monday keeping off a few teams and winning the world title. Schultz woulda had about 5-10 more points at least without those variables.  So that is the part that isn't perfect about the list.  BUt I like any list so...

The Monday total is off.  Monday won the 1988 Olympics.  He then won worlds in 1989 beating an absolute legend in the final, Fadzaev, who moved up a weight.  In 1990 he failed to make the world team.  He missed weight at the US Open which Rob Koll went on to win.  At the WTT Koll had a bye to the best of three final as the national  champion at the weight.  Monday had to go through the challenge tournament to face him and he might have had to wrestle in a qualifying tournament the week before to even get in the field.  In any event Monday won the first match and then dropped the next two.  It was a big upset and though Koll went on to finish a very respectable 5th at worlds I doubt he would have beaten Monday in a final X format.  The next year Monday won the world team spot and got second at worlds.  He then made the Olympic team in 1992 and won silver.  After the Olympics he took some time off and was in semi retirement.  He came back to earn a spot on the team in 1996 and DNP. 

I doubt Schultz would have beaten Monday.  He had not defeated him since Monday made the Olympic team in 1988.  

Below is Monday's corrected total. He is ahead of Kyle Snyder.  I would also think that earning a World or Olympic team spot should give someone points.  I consider Ben Askren's biggest accomplishment in wrestling winning the Olympic Trials not the NCAA tournament. Age level world medals (Cadet, Junior, University, and Espior) might also be a good addition.

Kenny Monday (26) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 NCAA Title/ 2 NCAA Finals

Tervel Dlagnev(12) 1 Olympic Bronze/2 World Bronze

Also Pat Smith should be on there with 8 points from NCAA titles. And every three time NCAA champ should at least be ahead of Zadick and most of them Gilman too.  

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On 9/1/2017 at 12:54 PM, gimpeltf said:

 

And he supposedly could have won every weight


All the stuff about Robin Reed - would Dan Gable have pinned him?

Would Reed have even scored a point on Gable?

The Russians did not do a nationwide search to find someone, anyone to put on the mat against him in vain hope of winning.

 

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1 minute ago, WillieBoy said:


All the stuff about Robin Reed - would Dan Gable have pinned him?

Would Reed have even scored a point on Gable?

The Russians did not do a nationwide search to find someone, anyone to put on the mat against him in vain hope of winning.

 

Considering he was 72-73 during the 72 Olympics, you answer the first two.

Why would they since they didn't enter the 1924 Olympics in wrestling?

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On 9/24/2019 at 11:40 AM, Fishbane said:

The Monday total is off.  Monday won the 1988 Olympics.  He then won worlds in 1989 beating an absolute legend in the final, Fadzaev, who moved up a weight.  In 1990 he failed to make the world team.  He missed weight at the US Open which Rob Koll went on to win.  At the WTT Koll had a bye to the best of three final as the national  champion at the weight.  Monday had to go through the challenge tournament to face him and he might have had to wrestle in a qualifying tournament the week before to even get in the field.  In any event Monday won the first match and then dropped the next two.  It was a big upset and though Koll went on to finish a very respectable 5th at worlds I doubt he would have beaten Monday in a final X format.  The next year Monday won the world team spot and got second at worlds.  He then made the Olympic team in 1992 and won silver.  After the Olympics he took some time off and was in semi retirement.  He came back to earn a spot on the team in 1996 and DNP. 

I doubt Schultz would have beaten Monday.  He had not defeated him since Monday made the Olympic team in 1988.  

Below is Monday's corrected total. He is ahead of Kyle Snyder.  I would also think that earning a World or Olympic team spot should give someone points.  I consider Ben Askren's biggest accomplishment in wrestling winning the Olympic Trials not the NCAA tournament. Age level world medals (Cadet, Junior, University, and Espior) might also be a good addition.

Kenny Monday (26) 1 Olympic Gold/1 World Gold/1 Olympic Silver/1 World Silver/1 NCAA Title/ 2 NCAA Finals

Tervel Dlagnev(12) 1 Olympic Bronze/2 World Bronze

Also Pat Smith should be on there with 8 points from NCAA titles. And every three time NCAA champ should at least be ahead of Zadick and most of them Gilman too.  

I’m assuming only guys who made a world team should be included. Good updates 

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