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MSU158

Now that Suriano is gone, who is your Pre-Season Team Favorite?

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Nope. There's nothing special about his style that keeps him from getting blown out. He's just not facing great offensive wrestlers on his feet. The moment he wrestles a talented offensive wrestler on his feet, he's likely going to get blown away. Less-than-elite defensive fundamentals plus slow feet is not a good combination against a high level offensive wrestler. Hall and Zahid have the talent to one day get to the level of wrestler that can "light up" Bo Jordan. I think they already have it in them, though they probably couldn't do it consistently quite yet. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if one of them pulled it off this season. I think Zahid would have a better chance to earn a big win over Jordan due to his size.

Also, are you truly trying to say that Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler in Neutral?  And are you piggybacking that by already putting Hall and Valencia ahead of where he was in their 2nd season?  Dieringer was literally a takedown machine..................

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Has there ever been a thread like this where every non-PSU fan doesn't predict the best possible outcome for everybody but the Nits?

Pretty sure I was very high end on the PSU projections.  And, I only went about as high end(for tOSU) as I could to show how hard it will be for tOSU to win.  Hell, I even finalized my post by clarifying that PSU's margin for error is considerably less than tOSU's. 

 

But, if you want to join the other PSU faithful that some how think I am a PSU hater because I don't predict them to win pretty enough, feel free!

 

 

Edited to add:  In fact, I now want to delve deeper to show just how high end my PSU predictions were.

 

125:  We don't even know who will be here.  Predicting a NQ, let alone points at NCAA's can't be remotely justified.

133:  Keener(2-2)-  He went 1-2 last season losing to Forys 12-4 and Alber 6-2.  Both lost in R16 and both return.  Going 2-2 can actually get you to the R12 or maybe R16 and 3 points for those 2 wins is pretty high considering 2 regular decision wins on the loser's bracket only nets 1.  Finally 133 returns Gross, Micic, Brock, Parker, McKee, Lantry, Palmer, Delvecchio along with Forys and Alber.  Throw in guys like Pletcher, Yates and Simmons/Parker and how do you figure Keener to basically reach the podium to exceed 2-2?

141: Lee(1-2)-  This weight is crazy deep.  7 AA's return from last year. You also have guys like Chad Red, Kanen Storr and K. Hayes(unless it is McKenna) coming in.  Winning more than a match is going to be VERY hard to do.

149:  Retherford-  I gave the guy 28 pts.  That is the exact same as last year.

157:  Nolf- I actually gave him .5 pts more than last year.

165: Joseph-  I guess he is the one guy I put lower.  But, I didn't come away from NCAA's remotely believing he was the best at the weight.  He wrestled a great tournament, but don't forget he came back at the very end to beat Lewis.  I simply think Martinez and Massa are better.

174:  Hall-  I still picked him to win it, but I gave him .5 pts less than last year just because BoJo and possibly Valencia can absolutely beat him.

184:  Nickal-  I gave Nickal .5 pts less than last year.  27 is hard to do.

197:  McCutcheon- 7th place is pretty solid for the 1 guy on the team with zero offense and is 0 for 3 in reaching the podium.  Even though 197 thins out you still have Moore, Haught, Weigel, Beazley and possible Miklus and Downey.

285:  Nevills-4th is pretty damn solid considering that Snyder and Coon return.  I have him ahead of either Hall or Kasper.  But, both is pushing it to me.

 

Pretty sure that is very high end for PSU.....................

Edited by MSU158

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tournament scoring gurus-winners brackets points for a tech fall vs a pin. thanks. 

You get 1 point per advancement in winner's bracket(excluding the final placement matches) plus 1 extra point for a MD, 1.5 for a TF and 2 for a FALL.  

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Disagree on Hall. As good as he is, most of his offense is "counter" offense. He is exceptionally good at creating angles against leg attacks. Also, he doesn't have the top wrestling ability to really do much against BoJo. Can he win? Absolutely. Do I see him as more than a very slight favorite? Nope. If BoJo is finally healthy, any gains Hall makes will be equally matched by BoJo.

 

As far as Valencia goes, I do really like his neutral wrestling. He has the length and speed to get to BoJo's legs. I am just not sold he will be able to handle BoJo's horsepower. Again, I would not be the least bit surprised if he wins, but he isn't going to get ahead by 5 or more takedowns, which is what it would take at a minimum to call it a "lopsided result. Because, remember, barring takedowns at the end of periods, 5 takedowns to zero ends up being about an 11-6 match.

I would consider an 11-6 win with 5 takedowns scored to be a lopsided result. Jordan's horsepower is largely offset by slow feet and suspect defensive skills. Zahid could potentially score that many tds imo. Even smallish Realbuto was taking it to Bo 7-2, (3 tds) at one point, before he ultimately went for that ill-advised hold towards the end of the match.

 

Hall could potentially get a big win because of his counter skills. Bo makes a lot of mistakes. I think Hall wasn't able to capitalize like he's capable of because of his smaller stature. If Hall has put on weight and strength, he has the ability to completely outclass Jordan. Hall has real wrestling talent.

Edited by bigmik

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Also, are you truly trying to say that Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler in Neutral?  And are you piggybacking that by already putting Hall and Valencia ahead of where he was in their 2nd season?  Dieringer was literally a takedown machine..................

No, Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler in neutral. He still isn't. That said, he was pretty solid. Also, Dieringer didn't have the offensive style or repertoire that a guy like Zahid had. So really I should say Jordan is in trouble if he runs into a guy that has a combination of decent skill, good athleticism, and a good work rate. I think Zahid has that combo. This doesn't mean he's better overall in neutral than Dieringer, only that he's likely to score more points. It's similar to the Dake/Taylor situation where Dake was better overall on his feet, but Taylor was more likely to light up lesser wrestlers due mostly to work ethic and variety of attacks. Zahid can attack both sides well, has good length, and a high work ethic when fully hydrated, similar to Taylor. He's quicker and more skilled at attacking both legs than Dieringer already. That quickness can lead to big points. Dieringer is pretty slow himself. He may be only a hair quicker than Bo, and Bo is slow.

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19, just a year older than typical, due to the 7th grade being repeated. Not so unusual.

 

Hall was born early in 1997. As such he turned 20 during his true freshman title run. I believe he started school late. Then later took a second 7th grade year when he transferred from Kentucky to Minnesota.

 

Sure he got a little more seasoning than the average teenager during his HS run. But even so he learned enough to best several older men during his NCAA run.

Edited by MadMardigain

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Mark hall as a "true freshman" is about as old as I was when I graduated college. Not the Jordan was any younger, but I don't believe hall will see the usual progression curve that "real" true freshman see.

Did you turn 20 during the school year you graduated college? That's awfully young.. good for you! I was 22 when I finished college..

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20 years old when he received his community college degree; that seems about right.  

 

Hall just won his THIRD age group World Title; people who bring up his age are just being petty and looking for something to tear him down. 

 

The gap between Hall and Jordan should only increase this year. Has Jordan improved at all since he entered college? In retrospect, seems like he was very close to his ceiling coming out of high school. Meanwhile, Hall should be a larger, better version of the one that won the title last year. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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Something to tear him down? My statement had to do with his age and the normal progression curve you see from 18 year olds entering college, not 20. Using your example of bojo not improving (who I stated was the same age-ish as hall when he entered college) would only support my statement and hurt your own that hall will progress while bojo will not. Talk about having cake and eating it too..

 

And I agree mark hall won a title last year, but he didn't beat bojo. Similar to how Steiber won a title as a freshman but never truly beat jo.

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No, Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler in neutral. He still isn't. That said, he was pretty solid. Also, Dieringer didn't have the offensive style or repertoire that a guy like Zahid had. So really I should say Jordan is in trouble if he runs into a guy that has a combination of decent skill, good athleticism, and a good work rate. I think Zahid has that combo. This doesn't mean he's better overall in neutral than Dieringer, only that he's likely to score more points. It's similar to the Dake/Taylor situation where Dake was better overall on his feet, but Taylor was more likely to light up lesser wrestlers due mostly to work ethic and variety of attacks. Zahid can attack both sides well, has good length, and a high work ethic when fully hydrated, similar to Taylor. He's quicker and more skilled at attacking both legs than Dieringer already. That quickness can lead to big points. Dieringer is pretty slow himself. He may be only a hair quicker than Bo, and Bo is slow.

I'm with MSU158 - you're crazy to say Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler.

If you want to argue the "literal takedown machine" part, I'm with you. The word figurative is underrated.

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Something to tear him down? My statement had to do with his age and the normal progression curve you see from 18 year olds entering college, not 20. Using your example of bojo not improving (who I stated was the same age-ish as hall when he entered college) would only support my statement and hurt your own that hall will progress while bojo will not. Talk about having cake and eating it too..

 

And I agree mark hall won a title last year, but he didn't beat bojo. Similar to how Steiber won a title as a freshman but never truly beat jo.

he was 19 when he entered college not 20. so 1 year older than most. 

 

now as far as who improves the most this season, time will tell. I hope BoJo is healthy and can balance what I can only imagine is a crazy life with school, marriage, kids, and D1 wrestling. Upper hand at this weight obviously could be huge in team race. 

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I'm with MSU158 - you're crazy to say Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler.

If you want to argue the "literal takedown machine" part, I'm with you. The word figurative is underrated.

I'm an OSU fan and I love Dieringer.  He was amazing with the outside elbow tie.  But if you bailed out on that tie and just gave him 2 there when he went short carry, he was not an offensive dynamo.  He scored points in bunches with big moves and horsing guys around.  BoJo was able to stand up to him physically and avoid the onslaught.  BoJo also got going on top a bit in that match, and Dieringer was occasionally a slug on bottom when he was cutting weight hard.  

 

I agree that Dieringer is the better neutral wrestler but that Valencia would have a better chance at opening up Jordan.  I don't see Hall scoring more unless he hits a big counter move.  Hall is awesome positionally and with counters and coming out on top of scrambles, but he has not shown he can initiate his own offense at that weight.  He may totally change that as he grows into the weight this year.  Who knows?

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Something to tear him down? My statement had to do with his age and the normal progression curve you see from 18 year olds entering college, not 20. Using your example of bojo not improving (who I stated was the same age-ish as hall when he entered college) would only support my statement and hurt your own that hall will progress while bojo will not. Talk about having cake and eating it too..

 

And I agree mark hall won a title last year, but he didn't beat bojo. Similar to how Steiber won a title as a freshman but never truly beat jo.

Considering Hall was 19 when he entered college, your incorrect assertion that he was 20 is certainly evidence that you are in fact trying to tear him down.

 

BoJo was extremely developed coming into college and has been huge for his weigh classes. Hall was undeniably small for 174 last year so even if you don't think he can improve much technique wise, he still has a lot more room to grow from a physical standpoint.

 

Comparing Hall/Jordan to Stieber/Oliver is absurd; give BoJo another takedown and he still loses.

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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Mark hall as a "true freshman" is about as old as I was when I graduated college. Not the Jordan was any younger, but I don't believe hall will see the usual progression curve that "real" true freshman see.

Time to get off the Daton Fix wagon. Too old.

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I'm with MSU158 - you're crazy to say Dieringer was not a great offensive wrestler.

If you want to argue the "literal takedown machine" part, I'm with you. The word figurative is underrated.

 

It's not crazy at all to say that Dieringer was not great offensively on his feet. He wasn't. It's far more "crazy" to suggest otherwise. We throw around words like "great" too much around here.

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He turned 20 in january, 3 months before winning ncaas.. and if you reset hall to bottom as the rules State (had bojo' s td been called correctly on the challenge) then the final score changes as well. Had hall properly been hit for stalling during his 40 second back pedal in the 3rd the score would have changed (every non psu fan at scott trade was screaming for it). The only reason hall scored a td at the end was bc bojo had to go for the nothong shot that was immediately countered. The ref won hall that match more than hall did. I am not a tosu fan and have no skin in the game, but that match start to finish was called phenomenally worse than stieber/jo. Interestingly, both matches lead to rule changes..

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He turned 20 in january, 3 months before winning ncaas.. and if you reset hall to bottom as the rules State (had bojo' s td been called correctly on the challenge) then the final score changes as well. Had hall properly been hit for stalling during his 40 second back pedal in the 3rd the score would have changed (every non psu fan at scott trade was screaming for it). The only reason hall scored a td at the end was bc bojo had to go for the nothong shot that was immediately countered. The ref won hall that match more than hall did. I am not a tosu fan and have no skin in the game, but that match start to finish was called phenomenally worse than stieber/jo. Interestingly, both matches lead to rule changes..

 

Turning 20 in January would mean that he won NCAA's 2 months later not 3. January + 2 months = March. 

 

As for Bojo's TD that was not award. If it was awarded the rest of the match would/could have turned out very different. You can't sit there as say that the only reason Hall scored a TD at the end was because Bojo had to go for the nothing shot. Who's the say That Hall wouldn't have been able to generate offense and score? Who's the say that Bojo wouldn't have either? You're analysis of what would have happened after the no td call by the ref is purely speculative. I could very easily argue that had Bojo kept his composure and not gone "for the nothing shot" and instead generated better offense he could have defeated Hall. There was plenty of time for Bojo to make up for that deficit.

 

As for your age. You said earlier that Hall was about the same age as you when you graduated college. Did you graduate college shortly after turning 20 years old? If thats the case that means you graduated HS at age 16. Which means you were 12 years old when you entered the 9th grader. Is this true? or would you say you were exaggerating a little bit on the age thing?

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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