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Explosive interview by Magomed Guseinov

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Jaroslav,

 

Here is the original report: https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/doping-control-process/mclaren-independent-investigation-report-part-i

 

Only real mention is page 47 where it say 28 wrestlers over a period of 4 years. It does not say much about who the wrestlers may be, except quote: "...athletes that were ordered SAVE tended to be medal winners or athletes of promise..."...on page 42. This is so vague that its impossible to say anything...athlete of promise? what? :) 

 

I believe you are using vague terms that are not well defined such as "...wrestling team was participating...". What wrestling team? This is a very undefined term -- it can include anyone from age 16 to age 30  on the Russian ladder that "are of promise", meaning 100's if not 1000's of wrestlers. 

 

And I am not Russian so there is no national pride issue. I wouldn't conflate these issues. But I do think you may be a little unfamiliar with the segmented situation in Russia/Eastern Europe and are over-generalizing a bit too much. No bad feelings and perhaps we don't have enough concrete material to discuss on this topic.

Edited by wfan24

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This is now a stupid back and forth about semantics. We all agree some but not all Russian wrestlers were doping. The Maclaren report suggests Russia had a centralized doping program for wrestling, among other sports. Both can be true and still nothing is answered with regard to how the doping took place and whether athletes were forced to dope or it was up to them and their coaches. Given half or more of the wrestlers did not dope, it seems to me the program was “centralized” only by name. In practice, maybe something like what wfan24 is suggesting took place. State-level resources and encouragement available to all, but only some doped anyway.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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Jaroslav,

 

The PDF link in the tweet is broken...also, the discussion / mails are in English, not Russian ?! What does it mean helped them dope, this is so undefined..who are these wrestlers, did they actually dope or were they prescribed stuff? There are so many questions.

 

And I wouldn't rely on a NY Times article about the state of affairs of Russian doping which is a competitor to US thus there is a direct conflict of interest and hence bias. A lot of whom they decide to 'catch' is political in nature. Are top U.S. athletes doping? Likely. Will they get caught, probably not, for many different reasons. I would actually say the U.S. or Iranian style of wrestling would benefit more from doping than Russians who compete less and rely more on technique. Is Yazdani a natural? hm, well...:) probably just like the other Yazdani who turned from 3rd placer to a world beater...

You are being intentually obtuse. The evidence is there, you are just refusing to believe it. You then keep trying to equate your unsubstantiated claims about us wrestlers doping to proven Russian government sponsored doping.

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This is now a stupid back and forth about semantics. We all agree some but not all Russian wrestlers were doping. The Maclaren report suggests Russia had a centralized doping program for wrestling, among other sports. Both can be true and still nothing is answered with regard to how the doping took place and whether athletes were forced to dope or it was up to them and their coaches. Given half or more of the wrestlers did not dope, it seems to me the program was “centralized” only by name. In practice, maybe something like what wfan24 is suggesting took place. State-level resources and encouragement available to all, but only some doped anyway.

It doesn't matter how the doping took place. The centralized part of this was the tampering with samples and changing them from positive to negative. They didn't have to give juice by mail, they just made sure whatever it was you were taking, you'd pass. Which then becomes a free for all. Wfan keeps acting like these are some random JV guys possibly using, it's not, the samples were from Olympic athletes.

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if you don't think the russian wrestling team was participating in the state sponsored doping program you are either full of it or have your head up your ahole. take your pick but there's nothing more to discuss there. 

 

as for moving on, here's another sad and pathetic chapter in the story. Rodchenkov writes this op-ed and Russian responds by issuing a warrant for his arrest. the overt action by the state to silence an enemy is not so much to keep the story from leaking (too late for that, duh) but to send a message to other whistle blowers that their lives will be forfeit if they dare speak up against the state. 

 

and of course WADA is powerless and the IOC is little more than a criminal cartel, so they are doing what's expected and trying to sweep it under the rug so they can go back to thievery in the name of sports. meanwhile the whistleblowers are either murdered or are forced to abandon their families and live in hiding. 

 

AncklePicker, thank you for for getting it. wfan's articles and translations are still appreciated but when it comes to Russia's state sponsored doping program he is just another stooge, parroting the same worn out bs and spin we've all grown numb to. it's unfortunate but that is international sports for you. 

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btw the McLaren report also released all the raw data Rodchenkov smuggled out of Russia. you can read all the emails and lab data by searching here

 

https://www.ipevidencedisclosurepackage.net/

 

with just a little searching it's obvious the freestyle and greco roman team were doping and sending their urine to Rodchenkov's lab for 'cleaning'. it's in Russian and English. enjoy!

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wfan's articles and translations are still appreciated but when it comes to Russia's state sponsored doping program he is just another stooge, parroting the same worn out bs and spin we've all grown numb to. 

 

 

I think I'm having a hard time following what this argument is about.  He's a stooge because he thinks that the state sponsored doping program does not affect all of the wrestlers -- while at the same time you agree that we have no evidence that all of the wrestlers were on doping programs?  Why exactly are you insulting him?

 

Take a look at the testing results from USADA -- how difficult would it be for our guys to be on drugs and avoid testing?  Just to pick a well known name, David Taylor has been tested once this year, and once in 2016.  My guess is that both of those were in competition tests.  Lance Armstrong was doping despite getting tested constantly - our elite athletes can get tested once a year - doesn't this seem odd?

 

https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/

 

I have no idea how prevalent doping is in wrestling in either Russia or the US.  If I had to bet, I would bet there is considerably more doping in Russia, because there is more money in the sport there.  But it also wouldn't surprise me if the truth was that the US had more doping wrestlers.

 

Let's just say for the sake of argument that as a result of Russia's state-sponsored doping program, half of all of the wrestlers they send to worlds are doping.  In this fantasy scenario, three quarters of America's world team are doping.  Are we still supposed to have more moral outrage against Russia's doping because it is state sponsored?  

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quanon,

 

Not sure what Jaroslav is rambling on about but apparently his reading comprehension skills are lacking as keeps using "wrestling team" despite being explained to several times that this is an undefined term. What you said in your 1st sentence is correct. Also, one thing that is strange in the report is that it mixes non-Olympic with Olympic sports (e.g. kettlebell vs. track and field). This is odd given the low-value Russian Sports Ministry places on that. This makes me think even further that the report contains all kinds of athletes even in the Olympic sports. Also, that site with the # of tests is funny. There are very few tests per year, if not 0, for Olympic level wrestlers. wow. Also, I wouldn't say there is more $$$ in Russia  than US in sports. Noone is getting rich out of that.

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I think I'm having a hard time following what this argument is about. He's a stooge because he thinks that the state sponsored doping program does not affect all of the wrestlers -- while at the same time you agree that we have no evidence that all of the wrestlers were on doping programs? Why exactly are you insulting him?

 

Take a look at the testing results from USADA -- how difficult would it be for our guys to be on drugs and avoid testing? Just to pick a well known name, David Taylor has been tested once this year, and once in 2016. My guess is that both of those were in competition tests. Lance Armstrong was doping despite getting tested constantly - our elite athletes can get tested once a year - doesn't this seem odd?

 

https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/

 

I have no idea how prevalent doping is in wrestling in either Russia or the US. If I had to bet, I would bet there is considerably more doping in Russia, because there is more money in the sport there. But it also wouldn't surprise me if the truth was that the US had more doping wrestlers.

 

Let's just say for the sake of argument that as a result of Russia's state-sponsored doping program, half of all of the wrestlers they send to worlds are doping. In this fantasy scenario, three quarters of America's world team are doping. Are we still supposed to have more moral outrage against Russia's doping because it is state sponsored?

So let me get this straight. You think there is more doping in Russia because there is more money in wrestling in Russia? You just totally disregard the FACT that Russia literally had a state sponsored fail safe method where their athletes could take whatever they wanted and not fail a test? It wouldn't surprise you if the US had more doping wrestlers than Russia? I don't believe either one of you actually read the report. There is no possible way.

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I think I'm having a hard time following what this argument is about.  He's a stooge because he thinks that the state sponsored doping program does not affect all of the wrestlers -- while at the same time you agree that we have no evidence that all of the wrestlers were on doping programs?  Why exactly are you insulting him?

He is a stooge for many reasons but your first clue should have been when he doubted the NY Times's ability to accurately report on Rodchenkov's story. 

 

wfan is taking a page from the same pathetic playbook the Russian media has been using since the McLaren report came out. offer a bunch of other nonsense explanations to explain what happened, then nitpick stupid irrelevant details to death to sow doubt. 

 

sorry if I sound like a dick now but if you don't believe Russia had a state sponsored doping program in which all their top Olympic teams participated in, including wrestling, you are either an idiot or a liar. take your pick!

 

also quanon, please reread all my posts carefully regarding my 'moral outrage' about doping. I have maintained the whole time that it is the Russian state that is culpable here, not the athletes. in many ways the athletes are the victims. I've been pretty clear about this. Also read the latest op-ed by Rodchenkov I linked to, he says as much as well. 

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So let me get this straight. You think there is more doping in Russia because there is more money in wrestling in Russia? You just totally disregard the FACT that Russia literally had a state sponsored fail safe method where their athletes could take whatever they wanted and not fail a test? It wouldn't surprise you if the US had more doping wrestlers than Russia? I don't believe either one of you actually read the report. There is no possible way.

 

It sounds like you're assuming that high level athletes are clean unless the government gets involved.  Why should we assume that?

 

Like I have said multiple times, Rodchenkov said that about half of Russia's Olympic medalists were doping.  I was surprised that it was this low.  I figured that most Olympic medalists would be doping, with or without a state sponsored program.

 

If there's a financial incentive, people will cheat.  By this point, virtually every soccer league on the planet has had well publicized scandals involving high level match fixing.  The ministry of sport in those countries didn't need to get involved.

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It doesn't matter how the doping took place.

Thanks for the wisdom.... that WAS my point. Arguing over semantics when what matters is that there was some doping. I couldn’t care less how it happened. Separately, I do think it’s only “centralized” by name if less than half of the guys are involved, but yes, that opinion is merely arguing semantics.

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AnklePicker,

 

I guess look at the facts in the report: 28 recorded wrestlers were involved in doping covering "highly promising wrestlers." over a number of years. Out of how many? Probably more than 500 if not 1000. If this is widespread *due to the national lab* one would need to see a lot more than 28 over that much time.

 

This confirms somewhat the obvious: doping in individual sports tends to be well...individual. Large # of cases will not even reach a lab. For instance, Russian Olympic Judo (Putin's favorite sport) won 3 golds in London and 2 in Rio + other medals, first time in their history. Yet Judo hardly appears in that lab's profile...

 

The presence of a government doping lab when it comes to sports like boxing, judo and wrestling is not an indicator of the level of doping going on, its absence or presence. Even though say Iranians are getting busted left and right, its hard to say what the level of doping really is. Same goes for U.S. wrestling.

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AnklePicker,

 

I guess look at the facts in the report: 28 recorded wrestlers were involved in doping covering "highly promising wrestlers." over a number of years. Out of how many? Probably more than 500 if not 1000. If this is widespread *due to the national lab* one would need to see a lot more than 28 over that much time.

 

This confirms somewhat the obvious: doping in individual sports tends to be well...individual. Large # of cases will not even reach a lab. For instance, Russian Olympic Judo (Putin's favorite sport) won 3 golds in London and 2 in Rio + other medals, first time in their history. Yet Judo hardly appears in that lab's profile...

 

The presence of a government doping lab when it comes to sports like boxing, judo and wrestling is not an indicator of the level of doping going on, its absence or presence. Even though say Iranians are getting busted left and right, its hard to say what the level of doping really is. Same goes for U.S. wrestling.

this is why I call you a pitiful stooge. 

 

the 28 wrestlers are just the number of wrestlers in the documents Rodchenkov was able to smuggle back to the US. he was ordered to destroy most of his documents. there are likely many more who did participate that are not int he documents that survived Rodchenkov's defection. 

 

also Rodchenkov ran 'THE' RUSADA lab. there were not others. the FSB assisted Rodchenkov in cleaning every spor'ts urine. the federations are run very independently, but they all funneled their efforts through Rodchenkov. this is why Rodchenkov and his assistant are complaining that the wrestling federation (ie Mamiashvili) is being slow in paying their $3-4K they owe. This would be obvious if you read the McLaren report. which is why this is a deliberate lie from you. 

 

and then you spout a bunch of irrelevant nonsense about Iranian and US competitors who get busted for PEDs, as this has anything to do with Russia's state sanctioned program. 

 

you are pathetic. 

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Jaroslav, I really like your posting on these forums but I think you are mischaracterizing the situation. There is state sanctioned doping in some sports in Russia and state sanctioned doping cover ups for all sports probably. The wrestling system in Russia is so fractured and divided and there is so much infighting and politics. There is no real Colorado Springs OTC. I wouldn't be surprised if the national team was given PEDs during national training camps, but that is such a small part of the year.

 

Most top Russian wrestlers train with their club 80% of the year or more. It doesn't really make sense to have a state sanctioned doping program when you can't control your athletes 80% of the year. There are national team members who train in Siberia and national team members who train in Crimea.

 

How do you propose that Putin and his sports minister make every single national level wrestler in Russia dope effectively?

 

Now do some clubs have PED doctors? I am sure of it. Do some wrestlers seek out their own doctors or get recommendations from the sports minister? Sure. Can any top level wrestler have his doping tests faked in the RUSADA system, yes. There is no mad scientist making the entire national team of Russia follow a specific and organized doping regimen though. It simply isn't logistically possible.

Edited by manyak

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this is why I call you a pitiful stooge. 

 

the 28 wrestlers are just the number of wrestlers in the documents Rodchenkov was able to smuggle back to the US. he was ordered to destroy most of his documents. there are likely many more who did participate that are not int he documents that survived Rodchenkov's defection. 

 

also Rodchenkov ran 'THE' RUSADA lab. there were not others. the FSB assisted Rodchenkov in cleaning every spor'ts urine. the federations are run very independently, but they all funneled their efforts through Rodchenkov. this is why Rodchenkov and his assistant are complaining that the wrestling federation (ie Mamiashvili) is being slow in paying their $3-4K they owe. This would be obvious if you read the McLaren report. which is why this is a deliberate lie from you. 

 

and then you spout a bunch of irrelevant nonsense about Iranian and US competitors who get busted for PEDs, as this has anything to do with Russia's state sanctioned program. 

 

you are pathetic. 

Are you capable of arguing without resorting to name calling?  You automatically lose respect for such crap.  If you are "right", then you wouldn't need to stoop to name calling.  

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How do you propose that Putin and his sports minister make every single national level wrestler in Russia dope effectively?

 

 

 

who ever said it was every single wrestler? and how hard is it to grasp that the wrestling federation coordinated the doping and detection avoiding with Rodchenkov's lab? stop asking me for details and read the McLaren reports and watch Icarus. and you will understand how the wrestling team and every other sport was involved. it is all very clear. 

 

 

Are you capable of arguing without resorting to name calling?  You automatically lose respect for such crap.  If you are "right", then you wouldn't need to stoop to name calling.  

lol no, not when wfan or anyone else wants to spew bs propaganda. wfan forfeited his right to a safespace with that garbage!

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Not sure why they got rid of Guseinov. He seems to be a very well respected coach. Sajidov is kept on the side while Mamiashvilli and Tedeev run the show, picking and selecting wrestlers as they see fit. I wonder what Sadulaev thinks of all this, I guess he cannot say much or he too, may find himself out of wrestling.

Nah, not out of wrestling, just a free agent. Lots of countries would let him wrestle for them. He is actually a wrestler that can get away with more.

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I guess I shouldn't bother arguing with a boneheaded monkey who doesn't read..."there are likely many more who did participate"...likely?

 

Stick to the facts and quit fantasizing and imagining why 1/2 the Russian team was not in Paris. 

 

It was explained to you 20 times already that a centralized program is not possible by several posters.

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Russian wrestlers dope. 

 

I saw it with my own eyes when I lived there.

 

The Russian wrestling and sports ministry probably encourages it.

 

The Russian wrestling and sports ministry absolutely will help cover up test results.

 

However, there is no East German/Ivan Drago-style Soviet program that I am aware of or could even conceive of being possible, where all top athletes are monitored and put on a standardized doping program. It's simply too fractured and disorganized.

 

It would be the difference between the UFC saying "we won't test you for PEDs and here are some recommended PED regimens and we can hook you up with doctors" wink wink nudge nudge and the UFC saying "this is the standardized doping program you must use, we will keep track of your whereabouts and monitor your dosage and blood results and performance".

 

The former would be very possible. The latter would be logistically impossible, there are too many fighters in different countries in different camps to be that organized.

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manyak,

 

something like that. My experience is that doping, if it goes on, is very individual, so even saying "here is a program for you to follow" cannot possibly work. What can in theory work is: "do whatever program you want and we will cover up all results.". That is also not easy as they need to constantly know what you are taking, etc. I have no doubt this can happen for few wrestlers over the years, but this athlete-government connection is definitely not mainstream. 

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manyak,

 

something like that. My experience is that doping, if it goes on, is very individual, so even saying "here is a program for you to follow" cannot possibly work. What can in theory work is: "do whatever program you want and we will cover up all results.". That is also not easy as they need to constantly know what you are taking, etc. I have no doubt this can happen for few wrestlers over the years, but this athlete-government connection is definitely not mainstream.

Really..."for few wrestlers over the years?" You didn't actually read the McLaren report did you? Your experience it's very individual huh? Well here's a direct quote from the report contradicting your experience.

 

1. An institutional conspiracy existed across summer and winter sports athletes who participated with Russian officials within the Ministry of Sport and its infrastructure, such as the RUSADA, CSP and the Moscow Laboratory, along with the FSB for the purposes of manipulating doping controls. The summer and winter sports athletes were not acting individually but within an organised infrastructure as reported on in the 1st Report.

 

And then this:

 

3. The swapping of Russian athletes’ urine samples further confirmed in this 2nd Report as occurring at Sochi, did not stop at the close of the Winter Olympics. The sample swapping technique used at Sochi became a regular monthlypractice of the Moscow Laboratory in dealing with elite summer and winterathletes. Further DNA and salt testing confirms the technique, while others relied on DPM.

 

It's WWWAAAAYYYY more widespread than a few athletes but go ahead and keep burying your head in the sand.

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