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Explosive interview by Magomed Guseinov


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#21 BigTimeFan

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:52 PM

I don't know the answers to all of those questions.

 

Mamiashvili is a former Greco World and Olympic champion and the head of the Russian wrestling federation. He took over the federation at some point after the breakup of the Soviet Union.  I don't know who he replaced or when he became the head guy, but it's been a long time.

 

Dzhambolat Tedeev is an Ossetian who wrestled for Ukraine and got 5th at the 1996 Olympics in freestyle.  I don't know if he is Elbrus Tedeev's cousin or brother.  I think they are cousins.  Elbrus won the Olympics and won worlds multiple times, including beating Kolat.  I believe that Elbrus Tedeev now runs Ukraine's wrestling federation (I know he did for a while).

 

I don't know much about Tedeev's relationship to Mamiashvili, but Dzhambolat Tedeev was the head coach of the Russian team for quite a while.  I believe he was under house arrest for a while when he tried to run for President of South Ossetia (or something like that - maybe someone else knows more?).  He lost his job as head coach, and I believe was replaced by Guseinov.  Then Guseinov was fired and Tedeev was rehired.

 

Sajidov is a former 2x world champion (beat Cael in 2003 finals).  He is the head coach for Dagestani wrestling.

 

Kerimov is a Dagestani billionaire and politician.

Awesome, I really appreciate your taking the time to respond! 



#22 BigTimeFan

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:55 PM

Mamiashvili used to work in russian organized crime. a lot of ex-athletes did after the soviet union collapsed. kind of like Rocky in the first movie. he is also ethnically Georgian and was part of the crime family headed by Otari Kvantrishvili (more on him here). the soviet union and its republics were broke when it collapsed so there was no money to fund sports when Russia gained independence. so Yeltsin gave the newly constituted russian sports ministry control of the lucrative state run alcohol import/export authority. the sports ministry was supposed its authority to fund sports (duh) but because the soviet union was also hopelessly corrupt it was soon taken over by organized crime. thats where Kvantrishvili and Mamiashvili came in. It's also when this corrupt piece of garbage also started getting involved. pretty much level of russian politics has been overrun with an unconscionable level of criminality. to distract from constant theivery, Putin et al go to great lengths to prop up sports (and cheat at sports) and bribe the IOC and FIFA for event hosting rights. It's all very sad.

 

but anyway I digress. 

 

Here's a good run down of Mamiashvili. He was helping run stolen cars to Japan and the rest of Asia from Vladivostok when his boss got assassinated by a rival gang. he's not allowed to travel to most western countries because of his criminal past. He wasn't allowed to go to Vegas for the 2015 world championships. he also punched Inna Trazhukova in the face after she lost her bronze medal match in Rio. 

 

so yeah, that's president of the russian wrestling federation and VP of UWW! 

Awesome color, thanks!

 

I had thought that perhaps the Russian's relatively weak (for Russia!) performance was due to the crackdown on doping. Perhaps it is, but it also seems like its rock solid organization and efficiency is crumbling. It reminds me of what I've heard happened after the USSR broke up  and the unified team was formed.



#23 Abdullahgadzhi Khuzin

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:07 AM

Awesome color, thanks!

 

I had thought that perhaps the Russian's relatively weak (for Russia!) performance was due to the crackdown on doping. Perhaps it is, but it also seems like its rock solid organization and efficiency is crumbling. It reminds me of what I've heard happened after the USSR broke up  and the unified team was formed.

it is not true about PEDs or USSR broke, just the problem is more obvious! Tedeev like his "gangsta" friend Mamiashvili is corrupt official. They are racists. I am living here and i know what's going on here. I have talk with many wrestlers (also with Russian world team etc). Tedeev is racist, he just want to see more ossetians in world/olympic/eu etc. Also Bekbulatov, Kasumov, Geduev and many top wrestlers didn't compete for World team. He just send wrestlers to World who won Russian nationals. that's all. I don't say that if would bekbulatov, ramonov and kurbanaliev compete at world we would won team rankings NO! USA, Iran did good job! Congrats! but i mean that the absence of top wrestlers and corruption led to a disastrous results! 


The opinions and views expressed in my posts, are intended to promote Russian international styles wrestling and international wrestling in general. Please excuse misspellings, misunderstandings, or misinterpretations. I am doing my very best to communicate in English, but it is a work in progress. I speak several languages, but I am still learning context, culture, and local tradition. I love USA and I am doing my best to be a great ambassador. Thank you for understanding.

#24 wfan24

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:08 AM

BigTimeFan,

 

I don't think either is true:

 

- Russian wresting is somehow so decentralized, scatted in separate regions, I'd say chances they all follow centralized doping program is probably lower than say in the U.S. I think things are a lot less organized to start with than people think :)

 

- As to organization, same thing. Wrestling is focused on few regions where its super strong and it has been that way for many decades. 

 

IMO, there are 2 reasons:

 

-> Tedeev has a bit of a point. In a post-olympic year they had a lot of inexperienced wrestlers and missing ones:

  -- Geduev (who had beaten Burroughs at the OG) missing: IMO, he would beat Yazdani (if he has 2 eyes and not 1 :).

  -- Bekbulatov (who teched the current world champ 10:0 at Europeans) missing

  -- Kurbanaliev missing

  -- Makhov missing

  -- Tsabolov was there and got 2nd (I think he will always be 50/50 with JB).

  -- Ramonov missing, Olympic champ

  -- Valiev 1st time wrestling worlds

  -- Kadimagomedov 1st time and losing in last seconds, 

  -- Rashidov 1st time. 

  -- Finally, Sadulaev hardly trained by all accounts and switched classes. The belief in Russia is that if this match went 6:5, then a prepared Sadulaev beats Snyder comfortably.

 

-> There is indeed a rift betwen Sajidov and Tedeev/Mamiashvilli. I suspect this will be settled one way or another.

 

Reading the interviews, and given the above, I suspect we will see a very different Russian performance at next worlds and probably even earlier, at the Europeans. My prediction is that at least Geduev, Sadulaev, Bekbulatov and Ramonov will be world champs next year.


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#25 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 07:45 AM

The Russian wrestling team was definitely doping, there is no doubt about that. they were working with Rodchenkov. He was giving them PEDs and cleaning their urine for RUSADA. If you read the emails from the McLaren report Rodchenkov's assist asks what they should do since the wrestling team wasn't paying (I think it was about $3-4K) and Rodcheknov says "screw them if they don't pay" [translated].

 

the training centers may be decentralized but Putin had the doping program up and running for all the Olympic teams. 

 

if guys in the US are doping, it would be them acting independently, not through a state sponsored system that Russia/USSR has been running since the 1960s. 

 

also the USSR being broke and corrupt just led to organized crime infiltrating the upper echelon of Russian sports. its why Mamiashvili is in charge and is proven incredibly difficult to dislodge.

 

for Russia's performance in Paris I think 1) some guys didn't wrestle because they were worried about increased anti doping efforts (speculative) but 2) Russia still sent their best available wrestlers and 3) Russia still won 5 freestyle medals and BARELY came in second. it was more just having a down year and the USA having a really good tournament. 

 

having Geduev at 79 and Bekbulatov, Ramonov and Kurbanaliev competing for a spot will make Russia a better team. Will be interesting if theyre all back in the mix plus Mahkov and maybe even Boltukaev. Budapest is going to be a lot of fun. 



#26 quanon

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 09:25 AM

The Russian wrestling team was definitely doping, there is no doubt about that. they were working with Rodchenkov. He was giving them PEDs and cleaning their urine for RUSADA. If you read the emails from the McLaren report Rodchenkov's assist asks what they should do since the wrestling team wasn't paying (I think it was about $3-4K) and Rodcheknov says "screw them if they don't pay" [translated].

 

the training centers may be decentralized but Putin had the doping program up and running for all the Olympic teams. 

 

if guys in the US are doping, it would be them acting independently, not through a state sponsored system that Russia/USSR has been running since the 1960s. 

 

also the USSR being broke and corrupt just led to organized crime infiltrating the upper echelon of Russian sports. its why Mamiashvili is in charge and is proven incredibly difficult to dislodge.

 

for Russia's performance in Paris I think 1) some guys didn't wrestle because they were worried about increased anti doping efforts (speculative) but 2) Russia still sent their best available wrestlers and 3) Russia still won 5 freestyle medals and BARELY came in second. it was more just having a down year and the USA having a really good tournament. 

 

having Geduev at 79 and Bekbulatov, Ramonov and Kurbanaliev competing for a spot will make Russia a better team. Will be interesting if theyre all back in the mix plus Mahkov and maybe even Boltukaev. Budapest is going to be a lot of fun. 

 

I'd be interested in seeing those emails.  

 

One of the things I thought was interesting in the ICARUS documentary was that when the interviewer asked Rodchenkov how many of Russia's medalists were doping, he did not say all of them.  I can't recall the number, but I think it was around 40%.  Obviously if only a fraction of the medalists are doping, then a lot of non-medalists are clean as well.

 

If Russian wrestling is really decentralized for yearlong training, one would think that might apply to doping as well.



#27 wfan24

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 06:11 PM

Jaroslav,

 

When you say "they" you need to be more precise. Who are "they" exactly? Without concrete names this is pure speculation. Based on my experience, I believe foreigners often grossly overestimate the amount of "doping" or special programs going on in Russia and some Eastern European countries. In the sense that exactly the same if not better designed and centralized programs are going on in the USA, Germany, etc. 

 

As to wrestling specifically (and also judo, boxing, etc), as they follow completely different training programs in different regions, any doping would have to be specialized to that athlete (and often, coaches themselves disagree on what supplements, how to train, etc). My opinion is that Boltukaev was doping, pure speculation. But I also believe JB is doping (like Boltukaev, kind of looked off-cycle in the Olympics, eh?), but again pure speculation.  

 

I disagree with your reason 1) why some didn't wrestle. This was already discussed at length in interviews in the Russian media, why they picked that team. I don't think this is their best team. I think their main problem is not doping or team selection, but administrative and I predict this will be fixed very soon. I think if Sajidov is the coach of the Russian team, we will probably see rather different results.

 

btw, fun fact, note that Chamizo trains in Dagestan now and is coached by Gaidar Gaidarov.



#28 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:01 AM

Jaroslav,

 

When you say "they" you need to be more precise. Who are "they" exactly? Without concrete names this is pure speculation. Based on my experience, I believe foreigners often grossly overestimate the amount of "doping" or special programs going on in Russia and some Eastern European countries. In the sense that exactly the same if not better designed and centralized programs are going on in the USA, Germany, etc. 

 

As to wrestling specifically (and also judo, boxing, etc), as they follow completely different training programs in different regions, any doping would have to be specialized to that athlete (and often, coaches themselves disagree on what supplements, how to train, etc). My opinion is that Boltukaev was doping, pure speculation. But I also believe JB is doping (like Boltukaev, kind of looked off-cycle in the Olympics, eh?), but again pure speculation.  

 

I disagree with your reason 1) why some didn't wrestle. This was already discussed at length in interviews in the Russian media, why they picked that team. I don't think this is their best team. I think their main problem is not doping or team selection, but administrative and I predict this will be fixed very soon. I think if Sajidov is the coach of the Russian team, we will probably see rather different results.

 

btw, fun fact, note that Chamizo trains in Dagestan now and is coached by Gaidar Gaidarov.

watch Icarus on Netflix and read the McLaren report online. I'm not speculating that Russia had a state sponsored doping program. that's a fact and its a fact that the wrestling team participated in it. 

 

I'm speculating that guys like Ramonov, Bekbulatov and Boltukaev didn't compete because RUSADA was suspended by WADA and WADA took over the testing. of course it could be a coincidence, hence its just speculation by me. 

 

you can speculate that Burroughs was doing but there is actual evidence that he gets tested by USADA which is actually credible. whereas RUSADA was actively helping Russian athletes dope. I'm not speculating that Russians are doping because of how a tournament or performance looks. We already know Russia ran a doping program and I'm speculating on who participated in it based on whether or not they avoiding competitions once they started actually getting tested for PEDs. 

 

by the way I'm not casting any moral judgements on the wrestlers for participating in a state sponsored doping program. I don't find anything immoral with taking PEDs, and if your coaches/admins are telling you to take them I'm not sure we can blame the athletes even. It's the coaches, admins and politicians who are the most responsible and reprehensible. For Americans to take PEDs its either carelessness or they actively seek to break rules, which to me worse than the Russian athletes merely acquiescing to coaches orders. 


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#29 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 02:25 AM

The part that seems suspect to me is how only some Russians were doping (per the posts before mine). In a state-sponsored program, why wouldn’t all athletes dope, as did the East Germans back in their day?

#30 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 08:51 AM

The part that seems suspect to me is how only some Russians were doping (per the posts before mine). In a state-sponsored program, why wouldn’t all athletes dope, as did the East Germans back in their day?

Russia today is not as totalitarian as the old USSR or East Germany. 



#31 Konquest

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 10:39 AM

I predict a car accident in Guseinnov's future.


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#32 manyak

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 11:01 AM

I believe that RUSADA would cover up doping of any national team wrestlers competing internationally. From what I've seen having been to the Caucasus and been around national level wrestlers, having a regimented doping program for all national team members would be impossible. It's too fractured and spread out. I believe a lot of Russian wrestlers dope through their own club/doctor but I don't think it is a top down order from the sports ministry.



#33 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:07 PM

Russia today is not as totalitarian as the old USSR or East Germany.


I get that, but what happens then, the coach says, you can take this if you want? If it were a centrally administered PED program as you suggest, I don’t get why random guys would take them but not others.

#34 wfan24

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:18 AM

I think what manyak says is about right in my experience. Centralized system for this is out of the question. I believe the chance a top US wrestler dopes with high quality "supplements" and in a systematic and careful way is actually higher than a Russian wrestler. But the chance a Russian wrestler dopes with random stuff is higher. I would be shocked if a top Olympic wrestler from either Russia or the US has not at some point taken some things to recover.  Some take them occasionally to recover (most popular way), others to put on mass, many don't take them year around, etc.



#35 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 12:15 AM

anybody with questions about how Russia administered a state sponsored doping program should 1) read the McLaren Report and 2) watch Icarus on Netflix. they lay it all out for you. there's no reason to guess or doubt how they did it.

 

Rodchenkov ran the Russian anti-doping lab. The FSB (former KGB) assisted in covering up the doping from WADA. Many Russian teams, including the greco and freestyle wrestling teams, used Rodchenkov's lab to dope (as did teams from other countries). The McLaren report redacted the individual names because the point was to expose how the system was state sponsored, not to punish the individual athletes. Please look up the facts if you have further questions. its all out there.

 

also this NY Times article is good place to start.  

 

One of the more interesting revelations from the Icarus documentary is when Rodchenkov said he was out of the doping game for a while but Russia couldn't find any scientists who could run their program as well and their athletes were getting 'dirty' PEDs, so Putin demanded they bring Rodchenkov back. 

 

evidence from the McLaren report that Moldovan athletes using the Russian lab to dope is in the tweet below

https://twitter.com/...259400759083009

 

Evidence from the McLaren report that the Russian wrestling team was using the Russian lab to dope in the tweet below

https://twitter.com/...618408258777089


Edited by Jaroslav Hasek, 03 October 2017 - 01:11 AM.


#36 wfan24

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 06:14 AM

Jaroslav,

 

The PDF link in the tweet is broken...also, the discussion / mails are in English, not Russian ?! What does it mean helped them dope, this is so undefined..who are these wrestlers, did they actually dope or were they prescribed stuff? There are so many questions.

 

And I wouldn't rely on a NY Times article about the state of affairs of Russian doping which is a competitor to US thus there is a direct conflict of interest and hence bias. A lot of whom they decide to 'catch' is political in nature. Are top U.S. athletes doping? Likely. Will they get caught, probably not, for many different reasons. I would actually say the U.S. or Iranian style of wrestling would benefit more from doping than Russians who compete less and rely more on technique. Is Yazdani a natural? hm, well...:) probably just like the other Yazdani who turned from 3rd placer to a world beater...



#37 AnklePicker

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 07:23 AM

Here's an update from Rodchenkov I read last week in NYTimes. It's not looking good that anything will come from this.

https://www.google.c...henkov.amp.html


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#38 AnklePicker

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 07:26 AM

Jaroslav,

The PDF link in the tweet is broken...also, the discussion / mails are in English, not Russian ?! What does it mean helped them dope, this is so undefined..who are these wrestlers, did they actually dope or were they prescribed stuff? There are so many questions.

And I wouldn't rely on a NY Times article about the state of affairs of Russian doping which is a competitor to US thus there is a direct conflict of interest and hence bias. A lot of whom they decide to 'catch' is political in nature. Are top U.S. athletes doping? Likely. Will they get caught, probably not, for many different reasons. I would actually say the U.S. or Iranian style of wrestling would benefit more from doping than Russians who compete less and rely more on technique. Is Yazdani a natural? hm, well...:) probably just like the other Yazdani who turned from 3rd placer to a world beater...


This is ridiculous. So you think The NY Times is trying to "catch" the Russians doping for political reasons?
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#39 wfan24

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 08:28 AM

What is ridiculous? U.S. is a competitor to Russia for Olympic medals and a U.S. newspaper pushes a story on Russian doping. You can find similar accusations on Russia Today  and Russian newspapers talking about Victor Konte-like scenarios + various U.S. politics/sports/doping, how they conveniently lost the U.S. samples from the Rio Olympics, etc. 

 

Back to wrestling, my experience is that if doping goes on its irregular and specific to particular athletes. Government can coordinate to provide stuff but how and whether it gets used and by whom is another matter. 



#40 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 08:29 AM

Jaroslav,

 

The PDF link in the tweet is broken...also, the discussion / mails are in English, not Russian ?! What does it mean helped them dope, this is so undefined..who are these wrestlers, did they actually dope or were they prescribed stuff? There are so many questions.

 

And I wouldn't rely on a NY Times article about the state of affairs of Russian doping which is a competitor to US thus there is a direct conflict of interest and hence bias. A lot of whom they decide to 'catch' is political in nature. Are top U.S. athletes doping? Likely. Will they get caught, probably not, for many different reasons. I would actually say the U.S. or Iranian style of wrestling would benefit more from doping than Russians who compete less and rely more on technique. Is Yazdani a natural? hm, well...:) probably just like the other Yazdani who turned from 3rd placer to a world beater...

wfan - I appreciate your help in translating articles and sharing all the great info coming from Russian websites but you are really grasping for straws here. Russia had a state sponsored doping program. The Russian wrestling team participated in it. this is not debatable. 

 

after becoming a whistle blower, Rodcheknov is now in hiding and fearing for his life. Nikita Kamaev, the head of RUSADAm never got the opportunity to run, and suspiciously died of a heart attack. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-35575774

 

by all means, speculate away on USA or Iranian doping. But please lets stop with the absurd denials about the Russian doping program. 






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