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Explosive interview by Magomed Guseinov


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#41 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 08:30 AM

What is ridiculous? U.S. is a competitor to Russia for Olympic medals and a U.S. newspaper pushes a story on Russian doping. You can find similar accusations on Russia Today  and Russian newspapers talking about Victor Konte-like scenarios + various U.S. politics/sports/doping, how they conveniently lost the U.S. samples from the Rio Olympics, etc. 

 

Back to wrestling, my experience is that if doping goes on its irregular and specific to particular athletes. Government can coordinate to provide stuff but how and whether it gets used and by whom is another matter. 

please 1) read the McLaren report and 2) watch the documentary Icarus on Netflix. until then these discussions are pointless. 



#42 wfan24

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 08:52 AM

Hey,

 

I am happy to read the report a 2nd time -- I've read it once before. I've not seen Icarus, thanks, I will take a look.

 

However, I do think you are lumping in too many things together. I absolutely believe that swimming, athletics, weightlifting and similar others have organized doping program, both in Russia and U.S. I don't believe that Russian wrestling (or say Judo teams, which are a lot closer to Putin's heart than wrestling) are all following a centralized doping program for the reasons manyak stated as well. That just makes no sense and there is no evidence of that either. And from what I've seen there is a *very* wide variance on this topic among combat-based athletes. Roughly, on average, I'd say there are cases that dope to recover occasionally, and there may be few extreme cases here and there (usually not the top athletes), but that is about it. 



#43 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 09:09 AM

if you read the McLaren report than you know that the wrestling team is mentioned many times. They were part of the doping program. I'm sorry you don't want to believe it but it's true. Saying you read the report and still denying it now just makes you look foolish. 

 

I don't want to keep going in circles. It's quite clear to anyone living in reality so if you want to keep denying it you can continue that conversation with someone else. 



#44 AnklePicker

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 12:09 PM

Hey,

I am happy to read the report a 2nd time -- I've read it once before. I've not seen Icarus, thanks, I will take a look.

However, I do think you are lumping in too many things together. I absolutely believe that swimming, athletics, weightlifting and similar others have organized doping program, both in Russia and U.S. I don't believe that Russian wrestling (or say Judo teams, which are a lot closer to Putin's heart than wrestling) are all following a centralized doping program for the reasons manyak stated as well. That just makes no sense and there is no evidence of that either. And from what I've seen there is a *very* wide variance on this topic among combat-based athletes. Roughly, on average, I'd say there are cases that dope to recover occasionally, and there may be few extreme cases here and there (usually not the top athletes), but that is about it.


Didn't the Mclaren report indicate that 28 wrestlers falsified positive test results?

#45 quanon

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 01:28 PM

I haven't read the McLaren report.  Did the report indicate that every national level Russian wrestler was on a doping program?

 

I doubt it, because Russia sent a wrestling team to the Olympics.



#46 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 01:46 PM

Didn't the Mclaren report indicate that 28 wrestlers falsified positive test results?

yes something like if i remember correctly. 

 

 

I haven't read the McLaren report.  Did the report indicate that every national level Russian wrestler was on a doping program?

 

I doubt it, because Russia sent a wrestling team to the Olympics.

no, as I mentioned all the names were redacted. the point of the McLaren report was not to finger the athletes but to expose the state sponsored doping program.

 

RUSADA is supposed to be like USADA, Russia anti-doping watch dog. WADA doesn't have nearly enough money to run every countries anti doping efforts so they certify local agencies. however, because few countries have both the money and the cultural taboo against PEDs and cheating in international sporting events, most of these national level anti doping agencies are worse then useless, they actively help the athletes in those countries use PED and avoid detection. 

 

some sports teams used RUSADA and Rodchenkov's lab more than others, track & field and weightlifting I think were the most cited, but wrestling was definitely up there as one of the more active participants in the state sponsored doping program. there is even an anecdote where a WADA inspector spot checks the Russian Nationals (I think in 2013, don't remember exactly) where the RUSADA is supposedly running a WADA certified testing lab. but instead of following procedures the lab is wide open and wrestlers and coaches are going in and out at will. it's just one piece of evidence in literally hundreds of pages of it. 

 

anyway, nothing every happened because WADA is hopelessly underfunded and naive and the IOC and just about everyone else is either corrupt or doesn't have the energy or leverage to tackle the problem or just doesn't care. the silver lining to Rodchenkov being on the run for his life is at least Russia no longer has access to their "best" PED chemist. of course they can also spend money to train or hire someone else so I doubt it will be long before the operation is back up and running. 

 

like I said, it's all out there and published. please look it up everyone. just google it. 



#47 quanon

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 01:53 PM

It doesn't sound like the report says that all of the wrestlers were doping.

 

Perhaps they are systematically doping all of the wrestlers on the national team, perhaps they are not.

 

As I said before, in the Icarus documentary Rodchenkov said around half of Russia's medalists were doping.  That means half were not.  Which half?

 

Obviously some wrestlers were doping.  Were all of them?  Is it system-wide or not?  From what you're saying, we don't know that right now.  Reading a report with all the names redacted won't tell us.



#48 wfan24

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 03:59 PM

quanon, I have similar concerns.

 

When one says "national level wrestlers" or "national team wrestlers" who are these? This term is *very* broadly construed. For instance, I've seen the term "national team athlete" used for a wrestler that has participated in any national level tournament or above. This would include literally 100's if not 1000's of wrestlers for Russia. 

 

Jaroslav, I think you may be missing the point. There is a big gap between:  'some national level wrestlers in Russia' may be doping vs. entire Olympic team was for sure doping consistently. You made a speculation like that for why some did not participate at the worlds. I will take a look at the report again; I read it a while ago, but I don't remember these terms being defined and it was quite vague. 

 

Speaking about Eastern Europe and parts of Russia, here are few issues I can tell you from talking to people in those circles:

 

- poorer countries / regions _do_ have trouble getting the latest 'chemicals'. This puts them at a disadvantage to richer western countries (e.g., some well funded sports in Russia, US, Japan, Germany, etc) which use designer drugs that are well masked. This is a known issue and some even talk about it publicly, e.g., the need for a doping lab especially for sports like athletics, weightlifting, swimming, etc. Then sometimes they end up getting caught for using the cheap stuff due to lack of $$$.

 

- generally speaking, athletes in judo, wrestling and boxing are much more poorly funded compared to some others. Doping there is much less widespread than say athletics, etc. The federations do have a lot less money and its hard to get anything 'systematically' going. Its totally fragmented across clubs, coaches, etc. Worse, athlete funding varies wildly depending on your results the previous year. Many Olympic level athletes (some in Rio this year who did well) have very low salaries and actually don't have good nutrition. 

 

- doping is individual and usually not very systematic at all. Actually the most serious ones when it comes to  say "nutrition help" :) go outside the country. The location is typically Germany where the system is more advanced.

 

Implying that doping plays a serious role in the success of Russian wrestling is I believe misleading. There are other reasons for their success and we are probably better spent discussing those. 



#49 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 03:59 PM

It doesn't sound like the report says that all of the wrestlers were doping.

no it doesn't, obviously. no one ever said they were. 

 

I don't know how many times I have to say the athletes aren't fingered individually. 

 

I think you guys may be reading too much into "state sponsored". no one ever said or implied that the FSB was going door to door to all the wrestlers and forcing them to take PEDs on a regimented schedule. but it is clear that the wrestling team participated heavily in the state sponsored program. 

 

just read the friggin report, please. 



#50 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 04:14 PM

Jaroslav, I think you may be missing the point. There is a big gap between:  'some national level wrestlers in Russia' may be doping vs. entire Olympic team was for sure doping consistently. You made a speculation like that for why some did not participate at the worlds. I will take a look at the report again; I read it a while ago, but I don't remember these terms being defined and it was quite vague. 

wfan - you are putting words in my mouth. I never said the entire Olympic team was doping regularly. please do not misrepresent my statements as I believe it is leading to confusion.

 

what I have been consistently stating because there is doubt about it is that wrestling team was participating in the doping program. the coaches owed thousands of dollars in fees for PEDs and covering them up. the team would not be spending money and Rodchenkov would not be taking the time to provide them if they weren't at least world class competitors. 

 

 

- poorer countries / regions _do_ have trouble getting the latest 'chemicals'. This puts them at a disadvantage to richer western countries (e.g., some well funded sports in Russia, US, Japan, Germany, etc) which use designer drugs that are well masked. This is a known issue and some even talk about it publicly, e.g., the need for a doping lab especially for sports like athletics, weightlifting, swimming, etc. Then sometimes they end up getting caught for using the cheap stuff due to lack of $$$.

yes this would be why it would behoove a country like Russia to set up a state sponsored doping program so they Olympic athletes from poorer regions would have access to the latest PEDs. This is precisely why Rodchenkov was brought back into the program. 

 

 

- doping is individual and usually not very systematic at all. Actually the most serious ones when it comes to  say "nutrition help" :) go outside the country. The location is typically Germany where the system is more advanced.

whatever the point of this is, it has no bearing on the fact that Russia sponsored a doping program for their Olympic athletes. you sound foolish in denying it. or, as I suspect at this point, you have always known it is true but are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue because of national pride or some other motive.

 

 

Implying that doping plays a serious role in the success of Russian wrestling is I believe misleading. There are other reasons for their success and we are probably better spent discussing those. 

I have never implied this, and again, I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. it's really starting to get annoying. 


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#51 wfan24

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 04:28 PM

Jaroslav,

 

Here is the original report: https://www.wada-ama...n-report-part-i

 

Only real mention is page 47 where it say 28 wrestlers over a period of 4 years. It does not say much about who the wrestlers may be, except quote: "...athletes that were ordered SAVE tended to be medal winners or athletes of promise..."...on page 42. This is so vague that its impossible to say anything...athlete of promise? what? :) 

 

I believe you are using vague terms that are not well defined such as "...wrestling team was participating...". What wrestling team? This is a very undefined term -- it can include anyone from age 16 to age 30  on the Russian ladder that "are of promise", meaning 100's if not 1000's of wrestlers. 

 

And I am not Russian so there is no national pride issue. I wouldn't conflate these issues. But I do think you may be a little unfamiliar with the segmented situation in Russia/Eastern Europe and are over-generalizing a bit too much. No bad feelings and perhaps we don't have enough concrete material to discuss on this topic.


Edited by wfan24, 03 October 2017 - 04:29 PM.


#52 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:54 AM

This is now a stupid back and forth about semantics. We all agree some but not all Russian wrestlers were doping. The Maclaren report suggests Russia had a centralized doping program for wrestling, among other sports. Both can be true and still nothing is answered with regard to how the doping took place and whether athletes were forced to dope or it was up to them and their coaches. Given half or more of the wrestlers did not dope, it seems to me the program was “centralized” only by name. In practice, maybe something like what wfan24 is suggesting took place. State-level resources and encouragement available to all, but only some doped anyway.

Edited by wrestlingnerd, 04 October 2017 - 12:55 AM.


#53 Housebuye

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 03:41 AM

Jaroslav,

The PDF link in the tweet is broken...also, the discussion / mails are in English, not Russian ?! What does it mean helped them dope, this is so undefined..who are these wrestlers, did they actually dope or were they prescribed stuff? There are so many questions.

And I wouldn't rely on a NY Times article about the state of affairs of Russian doping which is a competitor to US thus there is a direct conflict of interest and hence bias. A lot of whom they decide to 'catch' is political in nature. Are top U.S. athletes doping? Likely. Will they get caught, probably not, for many different reasons. I would actually say the U.S. or Iranian style of wrestling would benefit more from doping than Russians who compete less and rely more on technique. Is Yazdani a natural? hm, well...:) probably just like the other Yazdani who turned from 3rd placer to a world beater...

You are being intentually obtuse. The evidence is there, you are just refusing to believe it. You then keep trying to equate your unsubstantiated claims about us wrestlers doping to proven Russian government sponsored doping.
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#54 AnklePicker

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:45 AM

This is now a stupid back and forth about semantics. We all agree some but not all Russian wrestlers were doping. The Maclaren report suggests Russia had a centralized doping program for wrestling, among other sports. Both can be true and still nothing is answered with regard to how the doping took place and whether athletes were forced to dope or it was up to them and their coaches. Given half or more of the wrestlers did not dope, it seems to me the program was “centralized” only by name. In practice, maybe something like what wfan24 is suggesting took place. State-level resources and encouragement available to all, but only some doped anyway.


It doesn't matter how the doping took place. The centralized part of this was the tampering with samples and changing them from positive to negative. They didn't have to give juice by mail, they just made sure whatever it was you were taking, you'd pass. Which then becomes a free for all. Wfan keeps acting like these are some random JV guys possibly using, it's not, the samples were from Olympic athletes.
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#55 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 11:51 AM

if you don't think the russian wrestling team was participating in the state sponsored doping program you are either full of it or have your head up your ahole. take your pick but there's nothing more to discuss there. 

 

as for moving on, here's another sad and pathetic chapter in the story. Rodchenkov writes this op-ed and Russian responds by issuing a warrant for his arrest. the overt action by the state to silence an enemy is not so much to keep the story from leaking (too late for that, duh) but to send a message to other whistle blowers that their lives will be forfeit if they dare speak up against the state. 

 

and of course WADA is powerless and the IOC is little more than a criminal cartel, so they are doing what's expected and trying to sweep it under the rug so they can go back to thievery in the name of sports. meanwhile the whistleblowers are either murdered or are forced to abandon their families and live in hiding. 

 

AncklePicker, thank you for for getting it. wfan's articles and translations are still appreciated but when it comes to Russia's state sponsored doping program he is just another stooge, parroting the same worn out bs and spin we've all grown numb to. it's unfortunate but that is international sports for you. 



#56 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:03 PM

btw the McLaren report also released all the raw data Rodchenkov smuggled out of Russia. you can read all the emails and lab data by searching here

 

https://www.ipeviden...urepackage.net/

 

with just a little searching it's obvious the freestyle and greco roman team were doping and sending their urine to Rodchenkov's lab for 'cleaning'. it's in Russian and English. enjoy!



#57 quanon

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 03:34 PM

wfan's articles and translations are still appreciated but when it comes to Russia's state sponsored doping program he is just another stooge, parroting the same worn out bs and spin we've all grown numb to. 

 

 

I think I'm having a hard time following what this argument is about.  He's a stooge because he thinks that the state sponsored doping program does not affect all of the wrestlers -- while at the same time you agree that we have no evidence that all of the wrestlers were on doping programs?  Why exactly are you insulting him?

 

Take a look at the testing results from USADA -- how difficult would it be for our guys to be on drugs and avoid testing?  Just to pick a well known name, David Taylor has been tested once this year, and once in 2016.  My guess is that both of those were in competition tests.  Lance Armstrong was doping despite getting tested constantly - our elite athletes can get tested once a year - doesn't this seem odd?

 

https://www.usada.or...e-test-history/

 

I have no idea how prevalent doping is in wrestling in either Russia or the US.  If I had to bet, I would bet there is considerably more doping in Russia, because there is more money in the sport there.  But it also wouldn't surprise me if the truth was that the US had more doping wrestlers.

 

Let's just say for the sake of argument that as a result of Russia's state-sponsored doping program, half of all of the wrestlers they send to worlds are doping.  In this fantasy scenario, three quarters of America's world team are doping.  Are we still supposed to have more moral outrage against Russia's doping because it is state sponsored?  



#58 wfan24

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 05:38 PM

quanon,

 

Not sure what Jaroslav is rambling on about but apparently his reading comprehension skills are lacking as keeps using "wrestling team" despite being explained to several times that this is an undefined term. What you said in your 1st sentence is correct. Also, one thing that is strange in the report is that it mixes non-Olympic with Olympic sports (e.g. kettlebell vs. track and field). This is odd given the low-value Russian Sports Ministry places on that. This makes me think even further that the report contains all kinds of athletes even in the Olympic sports. Also, that site with the # of tests is funny. There are very few tests per year, if not 0, for Olympic level wrestlers. wow. Also, I wouldn't say there is more $$$ in Russia  than US in sports. Noone is getting rich out of that.



#59 AnklePicker

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:07 AM

I think I'm having a hard time following what this argument is about. He's a stooge because he thinks that the state sponsored doping program does not affect all of the wrestlers -- while at the same time you agree that we have no evidence that all of the wrestlers were on doping programs? Why exactly are you insulting him?

Take a look at the testing results from USADA -- how difficult would it be for our guys to be on drugs and avoid testing? Just to pick a well known name, David Taylor has been tested once this year, and once in 2016. My guess is that both of those were in competition tests. Lance Armstrong was doping despite getting tested constantly - our elite athletes can get tested once a year - doesn't this seem odd?

https://www.usada.or...e-test-history/

I have no idea how prevalent doping is in wrestling in either Russia or the US. If I had to bet, I would bet there is considerably more doping in Russia, because there is more money in the sport there. But it also wouldn't surprise me if the truth was that the US had more doping wrestlers.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that as a result of Russia's state-sponsored doping program, half of all of the wrestlers they send to worlds are doping. In this fantasy scenario, three quarters of America's world team are doping. Are we still supposed to have more moral outrage against Russia's doping because it is state sponsored?


So let me get this straight. You think there is more doping in Russia because there is more money in wrestling in Russia? You just totally disregard the FACT that Russia literally had a state sponsored fail safe method where their athletes could take whatever they wanted and not fail a test? It wouldn't surprise you if the US had more doping wrestlers than Russia? I don't believe either one of you actually read the report. There is no possible way.
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#60 Jaroslav Hasek

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 02:53 AM

I think I'm having a hard time following what this argument is about.  He's a stooge because he thinks that the state sponsored doping program does not affect all of the wrestlers -- while at the same time you agree that we have no evidence that all of the wrestlers were on doping programs?  Why exactly are you insulting him?

He is a stooge for many reasons but your first clue should have been when he doubted the NY Times's ability to accurately report on Rodchenkov's story. 

 

wfan is taking a page from the same pathetic playbook the Russian media has been using since the McLaren report came out. offer a bunch of other nonsense explanations to explain what happened, then nitpick stupid irrelevant details to death to sow doubt. 

 

sorry if I sound like a dick now but if you don't believe Russia had a state sponsored doping program in which all their top Olympic teams participated in, including wrestling, you are either an idiot or a liar. take your pick!

 

also quanon, please reread all my posts carefully regarding my 'moral outrage' about doping. I have maintained the whole time that it is the Russian state that is culpable here, not the athletes. in many ways the athletes are the victims. I've been pretty clear about this. Also read the latest op-ed by Rodchenkov I linked to, he says as much as well. 






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