Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wnywrestling

Blue Ribbon Task Force

Recommended Posts

I like much of this idea but am hung up on two championships.  The American NCAA D1 Tourney is one of the best events in the world--any style.  If we diminish it in some way, we've created our own mess.  However, if you want to get a TV audience,  Ohio State v PSU  at the end of the season could draw a nice crowd with a little hype.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like much of this idea but am hung up on two championships.  The American NCAA D1 Tourney is one of the best events in the world--any style.  If we diminish it in some way, we've created our own mess.  However, if you want to get a TV audience,  Ohio State v PSU  at the end of the season could draw a nice crowd with a little hype.

I'm just curious...how would having both a dual and an individual championship diminish either one? Think about it...those of you who live in states with both dual and traditional (tournament) team champions...is the tournament championship diminished by the fact that there's also a dual championship?

Edited by SetonHallPirate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like much of this idea but am hung up on two championships. The American NCAA D1 Tourney is one of the best events in the world--any style. If we diminish it in some way, we've created our own mess. However, if you want to get a TV audience, Ohio State v PSU at the end of the season could draw a nice crowd with a little hype.

If it ruins the tournament we can always go back to the system we have now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just curious...how would having both a dual and an individual championship diminish either one? Think about it...those of you who live in states with both dual and traditional (tournament) team champions...is the tournament championship diminished by the fact that there's also a dual championship?

 

PA has a dual team championship for the two classes, AA and AAA. I don't even follow it to be honest.

 

The state title to me is the team winner in the PIAA state wrestling championship. The year ends on that event which should tell you something. That event draws 10x as many fans, which tells the rest of the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I would love the fan base growing......... we can't even keep people who have been involved in wrestling for YEARS to stay with the sport after their kids are done wrestling. Once their kid/kids are done you NEVER see them at a match again in MOST cases. I have witnessed this over and over. How can we keep these people? That is where we need to start and that would be a HUGE step in the right direction. Any suggestions on how we can keep these folks as fans?

 

More emphasis on duals would be a way to keep those lost fans and keep their interest. Remember these family members go to the long multiday tounrmanets not because they love wrestling, but because they love their kids.

 

I feel that a NCAA dual tournament should take place before the individual tournament and the winner should be named the team champion. Then have the individual component to wrap things up for the individuals, similar to how many HS states run things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PA has a dual team championship for the two classes, AA and AAA. I don't even follow it to be honest.

 

The state title to me is the team winner in the PIAA state wrestling championship. The year ends on that event which should tell you something. That event draws 10x as many fans, which tells the rest of the story.

Let's just try this new system. If attendance and viewership is bad, we can always go back to the old one. If it's better, we keep it.

 

Also I'd guess that event has 10X as many fans because there are 10X more participants. Most people don't follow high school wrestling unless they are directly involved with an athlete or school. I'm certain most Ncaa wrestling fans would watch the dual championship. Let's just find out?

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PA has a dual team championship for the two classes, AA and AAA. I don't even follow it to be honest.

 

The state title to me is the team winner in the PIAA state wrestling championship. The year ends on that event which should tell you something. That event draws 10x as many fans, which tells the rest of the story.

Here's the problem...arena availability doesn't work in terms of making it a one-semester sport with the individual event at the end, thanks to the NBA and NHL playoffs, which, unlike the regular season, arenas cannot schedule for several years in advance, they HAVE to keep those dates open. By and large, unless we go back on-campuses, we'd be relegated to venues that are either too small, in too small of a market, in a market that isn't suited to wrestling, or in arenas that ought to be museum pieces. The only way the above point becomes inapplicable is if 2020 turns out to be such a hot ticket that they sell out all 70,000 seats at U.S. Bank Stadium, and the decision is made that we need to start having the championships exclusively in domes, and frankly, if that happens, we're in a lot better shape than we thought we were as a sport!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PA has a dual team championship for the two classes, AA and AAA. I don't even follow it to be honest.

 

The state title to me is the team winner in the PIAA state wrestling championship. The year ends on that event which should tell you something. That event draws 10x as many fans, which tells the rest of the story.

It's a poorly attended event as well.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm for a single semester sport and a dual championship.

 

But strongly against making the season longer. That is a roster killer. Make it shorter!

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Doesn't the season start a month later with this proposal? And then it ends a month later, but some teams won't qualify for the dual tournament.  So doesn't it shorten the season for most teams?

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about take the top 16 placing teams at the individual tournament and bracket them 1 vs 16 and so on, then hold the dual tournament two weeks later to close the season?

 

Also, I've long been for a one semester season for no other reason than it is best for the STUDENT-athletes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Billy: My guess is that some conferences will have a conference dual championship that last weekend prior to NCAA's as well, to determine their representative. For some teams, presuming that at least some conferences will have teams fail to qualify for their conference dual championship, the season would end even earlier.

 

Just to use an example, imagine how competitive those duals for, to use an example, a top-eight spot in the Big Ten would be if only the top eight would qualify for the Big Ten dual championship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think this proposal will do anything to grow wrestling, and am fairly confident that having the same 5-8 schools in the final 8 every year will give Athletic Director's at mid-level DI schools one more reason to save a buck or two and drop wrestling.  I have yet to meet one young wrestler who started in the sport because of watching it on TV or because of a college dual.  I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but I have never met them.  IMO, growing this sport MUST be done at the grass-roots level - getting involved at the youth level, talking to parents, getting them to bring their kids to a practice, etc., etc.  There is no money is wrestling, very little in scholarship money, etc. It will  never grow from the top down.  

 

What this proposal will do is diminish the greatest wrestling tournament in the world.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think this proposal will do anything to grow wrestling, and am fairly confident that having the same 5-8 schools in the final 8 every year will give Athletic Director's at mid-level DI schools one more reason to save a buck or two and drop wrestling. I have yet to meet one young wrestler who started in the sport because of watching it on TV or because of a college dual. I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but I have never met them. IMO, growing this sport MUST be done at the grass-roots level - getting involved at the youth level, talking to parents, getting them to bring their kids to a practice, etc., etc. There is no money is wrestling, very little in scholarship money, etc. It will never grow from the top down.

 

What this proposal will do is diminish the greatest wrestling tournament in the world.

If wrestling's success as a legitimate base for mma (or even for football) was emphasized more to the public, I think it would start to be seen as more of a martial art-esque activity than it is now. This could provide some "growth from the top"

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think this proposal will do anything to grow wrestling, and am fairly confident that having the same 5-8 schools in the final 8 every year will give Athletic Director's at mid-level DI schools one more reason to save a buck or two and drop wrestling.  I have yet to meet one young wrestler who started in the sport because of watching it on TV or because of a college dual.  I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but I have never met them.  IMO, growing this sport MUST be done at the grass-roots level - getting involved at the youth level, talking to parents, getting them to bring their kids to a practice, etc., etc.  There is no money is wrestling, very little in scholarship money, etc. It will  never grow from the top down.  

 

What this proposal will do is diminish the greatest wrestling tournament in the world.   

How would it diminish the NCAA Wrestling Championships? Sorry, but I'm completely stumped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't imagine the NCAA getting behind a second championship unless the teams are willing to pay for it themselves. Paying for 8 teams to travel one week and then 7 the next starts to get expensive. Hard to imagine the dual tournament making its money back. 

 

Using 2017 results and 2/27 Flo rankings:

B1G - #1 PSU

Big 12 - #2 OSU

Pac 12 - #19 ASU (3 way tie, but going with highest ranked)

EIWA - #5 Cornell

SoCon - App State

EWL - Edinboro

MAC - #16 UNI

ACC - #4 Virginia Tech

 

Next 8 ranked teams

#3 Iowa, #6 Ohio State, #7 Nebraska, #8 Illinois, #9 Minnesota, #10 Wisconsin, #11 Missouri, #12 Michigan

 

Here's what the first round would be based on the Flo rankings (Edinboro and App State were unranked so I put them in the closest configuration)

 

Round 1 - higher ranked hosts

Edinboro at Penn State - 192 miles

Minnesota at Illinois - 511 miles

Michigan at Cornell - 498 miles

UNI at Virginia Tech - 902 miles

ASU at Iowa - 1,502 miles

Missouri at Ohio State - 535 miles

Wisconsin at Nebraska - 480 miles

Appalachian State at Oklahoma State - 1,019 miles

 

That's a lot of expensive travel on short notice. 

Might as well just have the Big 10 Champ bye to the finals and let everyone else fight it out on the other side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I would love the fan base growing......... we can't even keep people who have been involved in wrestling for YEARS to stay with the sport after their kids are done wrestling. Once their kid/kids are done you NEVER see them at a match again in MOST cases. I have witnessed this over and over. How can we keep these people? That is where we need to start and that would be a HUGE step in the right direction. Any suggestions on how we can keep these folks as fans?

 

We lose these people because the sport is too difficult to follow.  You can't even see how your favorite team is doing throughout the season because there are no standings that are published and/or mean anything (yeah I know Jason Bryant does a great job with standings, but what do they mean, and who really follows them?).  It's a hodge-podge of semi-meaningless tournaments & duals. Guys like Kyle Snyder can just skip the whole season & show up for nationals.  That's all that matters.

 

But a properly set up dual meet system can solve all this.  And by "properly setup" I mean a month-long (or so) series of individual duals, broken up into small pools of round-robin conference groups where the winner moves on.  This will build buzz... we know this because every popular sport on the planet does it this way.  But if it's not properly set up, like, for example, conference champs are decided in a single-day dual meet tournament, as some have suggested, all bets are off.  Dual meet tournaments suck... it's over the same day it starts, and provides nothing for fans to follow.  You need SEPARATE DAY DUALS (preferably on Friday & Saturday nights) with time for the press to write articles & build buzz in between.  It seems the Blue Ribbon guys know this, and I'm pretty happy with what they've suggested so far.

Edited by wnywrestling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We lose these people because the sport is too difficult to follow.  You can't even see how your favorite team is doing throughout the season because there are no standings that are published and/or mean anything (yeah I know Jason Bryant does a great job with standings, but what do they mean, and who really follows them?).  It's a hodge-podge of semi-meaningless tournaments & duals. Guys like Kyle Snyder can just skip the whole season & show up for nationals.  That's all that matters.

 

But a properly set up dual meet system can solve all this.  And by "properly setup" I mean a month-long (or so) series of individual duals, broken up into small pools of round-robin conference groups where the winner moves on.  This will build buzz... we know this because every popular sport on the planet does it this way.  But if it's not properly set up, like, for example, conference champs are decided in a single-day dual meet tournament, as some have suggested, all bets are off.  Dual meet tournaments suck... it's over the same day it starts, and provides nothing for fans to follow.  You need SEPARATE DAY DUALS (preferably on Friday & Saturday nights) with time for the press to write articles & build buzz in between.  It seems the Blue Ribbon guys know this, and I'm pretty happy with what they've suggested so far.

 

^This.  All of this.

 

We currently have a system where the only time any casual (wrestled in high school or had kids who wrestled in high school) fans hear any buzz about college wrestling the season ends and any re-kindled enthusiasm disappears over the next 9 months.

 

There is a model for a successful postseason tournament, basketball figured it out, baseball, lacrosse, soccer, etc have all adopted it.  ADs are dropping wrestling to add these sports because just getting into the tournament gets your team on ESPN for 2 hours, in wrestling if you get a kid into the finals you'll be on ESPN for 10 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's a great idea.  I think a Dual meet championship can draw in the team fan who wouldn't otherwise watch wrestling.  I wrestled at Cornell, and grew up a Sooner fan.  If Cornell lacrosse or ice hockey is playing in the NCAA tournament I watch it, otherwise I don't care.   I am a golfer and watch PGA a fair amount, but rarely watch college golf.  When OU was in the NCAA finals as a team, I followed it on my phone when I was on vacation and watched it on the golf channel. I watched the team event but not the individual event.  I have a college friend of mine who will not turn in and watch the NCAA wrestling tournament, but I think would watch a dual meet if they were in it.  Why?  he doesn't want to watch 4 hours of wrestling to watch 1-4 Cornell wrestlers.  I think he would tune in to watch Cornell.  I, on the other hand, will watch both.  You could use any school here as an example.

 

As for why the NCAA would sponsor 2 championships.  If it makes them money they will.  Right now, Wrestling is one of about 3-4 sports which the NCAA makes money on the tournament.  (football is not one since it has no ncaa tournament.)   If they can secure a good tv sponsor, then the NCAA will ok it.  I'm guessing all of the current viewers of the individual championships will continue to watch, plus you'll bring in the sports fan who has a college affiliation. 

 

Those are my two cents worth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for why the NCAA would sponsor 2 championships.  If it makes them money they will.  Right now, Wrestling is one of about 3-4 sports which the NCAA makes money on the tournament.  (football is not one since it has no ncaa tournament.)   If they can secure a good tv sponsor, then the NCAA will ok it.  I'm guessing all of the current viewers of the individual championships will continue to watch, plus you'll bring in the sports fan who has a college affiliation. 

If I'm understanding the schedule correctly - the current conference and NCAA tournaments remain in March, so that aspect of the season remains nearly unchanged; the added component culminates "with a late-April dual championship tournament", so we are talking about a max 4 week extension, including the dual tournament event itself?  So not a big hit on time for the athletes, especially with the late fall start being pushed back past semester exams.  Seems to me, a win-win - we get to keep the traditional tournament at the traditional time, but then we get a bonus wrestling dual tournament.  The only downside I see is it cuts out a lot of the pre-season tournaments, but as Cael and Co. demonstrated last season - you can skip those, and still win in March!

Edited by redblades

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think this proposal will do anything to grow wrestling, and am fairly confident that having the same 5-8 schools in the final 8 every year will give Athletic Director's at mid-level DI schools one more reason to save a buck or two and drop wrestling. I have yet to meet one young wrestler who started in the sport because of watching it on TV or because of a college dual. I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but I have never met them. IMO, growing this sport MUST be done at the grass-roots level - getting involved at the youth level, talking to parents, getting them to bring their kids to a practice, etc., etc. There is no money is wrestling, very little in scholarship money, etc. It will never grow from the top down.

 

What this proposal will do is diminish the greatest wrestling tournament in the world.

The only thing that will grab an Ad's attention is $$$ for their school and first class plane tickets and posh hotels for themselves for an event.

 

It's really as simple as that.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×