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Is it attendance? Is that the problem? If so, then what about marketing your home duals more? Spend some money to market the sport. 

 

 

What do you think is a better marketing pitch for home duals?

1: "Come watch your Campbell Camels take on App St. for a conference title and a birth in the NCAA tournament!'

2: "Come watch your Campbell Camels take on App St. and try to improve their individual seeds for the SoCon tournament!'

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What do you think is a better marketing pitch for home duals?

1: "Come watch your VMI Keydets take on Davidson for a conference dual tournament berth!'

2: "Come watch your VMI Keydets take on Davidson and try to improve their individual seeds for the SoCon tournament!'

FIFY

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Competition as a member of the U.S. National Team is specifically carved out.

 

Not for all the events he goes to and the exception isn't to say he can compete, it's whether the school can pay for it or coach him there and for things like an Olympic waiver during school years or in the year(s) between HS and college. A lot of college kids go to the USA regional events which didn't qualify them for anything and was out of season (May).

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Not for all the events he goes to and the exception isn't to say he can compete, it's whether the school can pay for it or coach him there and for things like an Olympic waiver during school years or in the year(s) between HS and college. A lot of college kids go to the USA regional events which didn't qualify them for anything and was out of season (May).

Check bylaw 17.31.1.7.1. "In wrestling, a student-athlete shall not participate in outside competition as an individual between the beginning of the institution’s academic year and November 1." That's where the exception of being a member of the U.S. National Team applies.

 

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D118.pdf

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What do you think is a better marketing pitch for home duals?

1: "Come watch your Campbell Camels take on App St. for a conference title and a birth in the NCAA tournament!'

2: "Come watch your Campbell Camels take on App St. and try to improve their individual seeds for the SoCon tournament!'

Honestly, I think the attendance would be roughly the same either way.

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Honestly, I think the attendance would be roughly the same either way.

Let's hear what you have to suggest? I'm interested...

 

In all seriousness, I'm interested to see Cael's position on this specific proposal. I don't think he's ever chimed in on the idea of having two distinct, separate NCAA championships.

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Let's hear what you have to suggest? I'm interested...

 

In all seriousness, I'm interested to see Cael's position on this specific proposal. I don't think he's ever chimed in on the idea of having two distinct, separate NCAA championships.

 

Actually, he chimed in on the last prior vestige of natty duals where they wanted to have the hybrid system with points carried over like they do in Nascar and golf. He argued against that idea on two distint fronts and one lesser front if my memory serves me correctly here.

 

1a) the point carryover from natty duals was a poor concept

1b) determining the ncaa champion via a tournament is superior than via a dual

 

and then also

2) it would be better for the sport if each school individually marketed their programs as opposed to trying something just for the sake of trying something. In other words, different isn't always better.

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Actually, he chimed in on the last prior vestige of natty duals where they wanted to have the hybrid system with points carried over like they do in Nascar and golf. He argued against that idea on two distint fronts and one lesser front if my memory serves me correctly here.

 

1a) the point carryover from natty duals was a poor concept

1b) determining the ncaa champion via a tournament is superior than via a dual

 

and then also

2) it would be better for the sport if each school individually marketed their programs as opposed to trying something just for the sake of trying something. In other words, different isn't always better.

1a and 1b are irrelevant to the discussion of having two separate championships. As far as #2, you really think they aren't trying?

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Actually, he chimed in on the last prior vestige of natty duals where they wanted to have the hybrid system with points carried over like they do in Nascar and golf. He argued against that idea on two distint fronts and one lesser front if my memory serves me correctly here.

1a) the point carryover from natty duals was a poor concept

1b) determining the ncaa champion via a tournament is superior than via a dual

and then also

2) it would be better for the sport if each school individually marketed their programs as opposed to trying something just for the sake of trying something. In other words, different isn't always better.

Cael's position sounds good to me. Is it time for the wrestling community to stop questioning Cael?

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Check bylaw 17.31.1.7.1. "In wrestling, a student-athlete shall not participate in outside competition as an individual between the beginning of the institution’s academic year and November 1." That's where the exception of being a member of the U.S. National Team applies.

 

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D118.pdf

 

An exception to the exception to the exception. Sheesh. 

I see what you're saying, however this was hypothetical given that the schedule would change for DI and not for other divisions. I would still be surprised if they made it illegal to compete for DI in November/early December (or whenever pre-competition becomes) in this case. 

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An exception to the exception to the exception. Sheesh. 

I see what you're saying, however this was hypothetical given that the schedule would change for DI and not for other divisions. I would still be surprised if they made it illegal to compete for DI in November/early December (or whenever pre-competition becomes) in this case. 

Touche, Gimp! Made my head spin too!

 

That rule was actually put into place in 2011, when the common start dates (October 10th for practice, November 1st for competition) were put into place. Whether they would extend the competition embargo period into November and part of December remains to be seen, and I would have to defer to others to ask that question.

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1a and 1b are irrelevant to the discussion of having two separate championships. As far as #2, you really think they aren't trying?

 

I would hope they are trying. Can they do better? I think they probably can, but if they can't draw many fans to a february or december dual then I think this plan faces serious challenges.

 

1) the proposed duals season is very short.

2) many wrestlers will be beat up after ncaa's and will sit out some of these duals

3) the proposal dates for the duals championship overlap both freestyle wrestling events for the wrestlers AND spring football for the fans. Would fans who travel to Ann Arbor for spring football give that up for a wrestling dual vs. PSU? Kinda doubt it.

4) wrestlers from the better duals teams will get an asterisk by losing at natty duals, thus diminishing their accomplishment, but wrestlers from non trafitional powers face no such risk should they win ncaa's.

 

Your initial response is the same one that always comes up. "But they are losing programs!"

 

Women's gymnastics has a program that averages 50 fans. Do they need to totally rearrange their sport in a misguided attempt to save that program?

 

PSU averages about 1700 fans to their gymnastics meets. Would creating a 2nd championship in that sport change that number? I doubt it.

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I'd be OK with Cael marketing his own program the way he wants to, and letting the rest of College Wrestling do what they want to.

 

No you wouldn't. He proved that already by skipping the duals tourney i.e. doing it his way, and everyone blamed him when the duals event couldn't draw flies.

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Has anyone mentioned anything about cutting Cael a big, fat check over this entire dual national championship proposal? It seems that Cael is always at the center of these discussions. If the success of this endeavor depends mostly on what he decides to do, shouldn't he be compensated more than anyone else? If not, what does he get out of this? What's the incentive?

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I would hope they are trying. Can they do better? I think they probably can, but if they can't draw many fans to a february or december dual then I think this plan faces serious challenges.

 

1) the proposed duals season is very short.

2) many wrestlers will be beat up after ncaa's and will sit out some of these duals

3) the proposal dates for the duals championship overlap both freestyle wrestling events for the wrestlers AND spring football for the fans. Would fans who travel to Ann Arbor for spring football give that up for a wrestling dual vs. PSU? Kinda doubt it.

4) wrestlers from the better duals teams will get an asterisk by losing at natty duals, thus diminishing their accomplishment, but wrestlers from non trafitional powers face no such risk should they win ncaa's.

 

Your initial response is the same one that always comes up. "But they are losing programs!"

 

Women's gymnastics has a program that averages 50 fans. Do they need to totally rearrange their sport in a misguided attempt to save that program?

 

PSU averages about 1700 fans to their gymnastics meets. Would creating a 2nd championship in that sport change that number? I doubt it.

1. The proposed dual season wouldn't be the only time wrestlers would have duals. They'd have duals during the pre-Traditional season as well.

2. Even if those teams are on the bubble for a home first-round dual, an at-large bid, or even to get into their conference Dual Championship? I suspect the calculus would change for some coaches.

3. I suspect freestyle wrestling would be able to alter their dates. As far as spring football, that's a point I hadn't thought of.

4. They'd still be NCAA Champions. Same way, if the guy who wins the NCAA Golf individual championship then loses a match or two in the team match-play portion of the championship, his national championship isn't diminished.

 

Glad you mentioned women's gymnastics, actually (and BTW, there are programs, both in the SEC and out west, that draw over 10,000 for their meets). They have a fairly similar schedule to the one we're proposing (in fact, our dual championship would be the weekend after their championship, and their first allowable date of competition is January 1st, not mid-December like the BRTF is proposing), but they are, in fact, completely revamping their NCAA Championships, effective with the 2019 edition.

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4. They'd still be NCAA Champions. Same way, if the guy who wins the NCAA Golf individual championship then loses a match or two in the team match-play portion of the championship, his national championship isn't diminished.

 

Absolutely disagree. If Thomas Gilman had a rematch against Cruz a few weeks after in the NCAA Duals and won, it absolutely diminishes Cruz's title win. The individual championship should be the final event of the season. The team championship should be before the individual post season.

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SHP,

 

 

What does Cael get out of agreeing to this proposal? How does this help PSU?

Us being a one-semester sport, enhancing the welfare of his wrestlers.

 

 

Absolutely disagree. If Thomas Gilman had a rematch against Cruz a few weeks after in the NCAA Duals and won, it absolutely diminishes Cruz's title win. The individual championship should be the final event of the season. The team championship should be before the individual post season.

If there was a way to do it, I'd absolutely agree. But we'd either be forced into domes (too large, most likely) or arenas in small markets, where there isn't wrestling interest, or where the arenas ought to be museum pieces, due to conflicts with NBA and NHL playoffs. If U.S. Bank manages to sell 70,000 tickets for each session in 2020, I'll be happy to eat my hat on this point, knowing that duals in March, traditionals in April is feasible. Until then, however, it isn't!

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Us being a one-semester sport, enhancing the welfare of his wrestlers.

 

 

Above you stated that freestyle would adjust their schedule to accommodate this change. Now that is a dubious claim in and of itself because we can't know that would actually happen, but what is to say the fall semester would not be taken up with the better wrestlers attending freestyle events? This could work both ways. Folk gets shorter, Free gets longer to fill in the gaps. What would have changed in so far as the wrestler's "welfare" being concerned? 

Edited by TBar1977

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