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Jon_Kozak

Prowl explained...

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Wait, what is this? Is it actually happening, or just a proposal at this point?

 

dunno. the way flo was talking about it was a done deal, also the way tony ramos is defending it like crazy on twitter right now makes it seem that way as well.

 

someone in this thread brought up a great point though, Prowl and Flo would technically be competitors and I didn't think about it that way.

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only if they can actually sell TV rights, which, if they could, i would be on board with using this format as a way to pick next years team only as a way of launching a more sustainable pro wrestling league than previous attempts...

 

but using this system long term to decide our world teams is no less horrifying today than when i initially heard it yesterday...

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I have a couple problems with this.  

 

1. This is a very stupid way to decide a world team.  You want 4 separate weight weigh ins over 7 weeks?  That makes no sense.

 

2. Only wrestling one match at a time is not a good simulation of the world or olympic tournament. 

 

3.  The field for WTT qualification is way too small.  Why does an NCAA champion get in over the #3 at the US open (assuming #2 wins the last chance qualifier).  9 out of 10 times #3 at the US open is better than an NCAA champion.  NCAA wrestling isn't even in freestyle or folkstyle, and there are 10 NCAA weights while only 8 freestyle.  

 

4.  There is a huge conflict of interesting by having Matt Novogratz run the WTT qualification system. I'm generally in favor of trying new ideas because if it is clear that they are bad ideas, it's always possible to go back to the old system.  Having the younger brother of the guy funding USA wrestling now want to control the qualification process as a media venture will make it extremely difficult for USAW to drop this if/when they decide this is bad. 

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There is a problem, because the weights do not line up properly.

 

125 / 125.7 (57)

133 / 134.5 (61)

141 / 143.3 (65)

149 / 

157 / 154.3 (70)

165 / 163.1 (74)

174 / 174.2 (79)

184 / 189.6 (86)

197 / 202.8 (92)

285 / 213.8 (97) & 275.6 (125)

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not as simple as that.

Of course someone from Flo would say that. Please explain why wrestling won't work on major networks and why Flo is the best avenue.

 

You can tell me this isn't a competitor for Flo, but who broadcast the WTT's this year and who would be broadcasting it if this happens? Maybe "competitor" isn't the right word, but these two groups certainly have opposing interests. We're not dumb. This would not be good for Flo's business as they would lose a marquee event.

Edited by superbowlhomeboy

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Of course someone from Flo would say that. Please explain why wrestling won't work on major networks and why Flo is the best avenue.

 

You can tell me this isn't a competitor for Flo, but who broadcast the WTT's this year and who would be broadcasting it if this happens? Maybe "competitor" isn't the right word, but these two groups certainly have opposing interests. We're not dumb. This would not be good for Flo's business as they would lose a marquee event.

I'd love to see the WTT on TV, but I don't think a 6 week round robin tournament will draw any interest at all. The point of the WTT should be to put together the best world team, end of discussion. This format does not do that and it damages the trials process in order to revive what has repeatedly been a failed idea (professional wrestling league).  

 

You won't have a successful professional wrestling league without actually having the best wrestlers in the world, period.  If UWW planned out some type of league that included the best in the world and culminated in the world championships, that would be something to watch.  

 

 

Of course someone from Flo would say that. Please explain why wrestling won't work on major networks and why Flo is the best avenue.

 

You can tell me this isn't a competitor for Flo, but who broadcast the WTT's this year and who would be broadcasting it if this happens? Maybe "competitor" isn't the right word, but these two groups certainly have opposing interests. We're not dumb. This would not be good for Flo's business as they would lose a marquee event.

 
You're right that the people who work for flo have a conflict of interest.  I do not though and think this idea is nonsense.  Would it even be on the table if the person running it isn't the brother of the guy funding USAW? 
Edited by Billyhoyle

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I have a couple problems with this.

 

3. The field for WTT qualification is way too small. Why does an NCAA champion get in over the #3 at the US open (assuming #2 wins the last chance qualifier). 9 out of 10 times #3 at the US open is better than an NCAA champion. NCAA wrestling isn't even in freestyle or folkstyle, and there are 10 NCAA weights while only 8 freestyle.

 

Also, could NCAA champs even accept the prize money, or could it be placed in escrow like for Snyder?

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Why on earth would they want to compete with or alienate flo, the best thing wrestling has going in terms of retaining its base as fans? Flo facilitated my transition from former wrestler to rabid wrestling fan. If they want, as they claim, to help grow wrestling and inject cash into the sport's top levels, then undercutting flo seems counterintuitive. Now, I'm not saying that flo is God's gift to wrestling, and I also have considered the angle that competition will be good for flo in the long run. However, cooperating with and seeking input from flo, the rtc coaches, the athletes, among other stakeholders seems like it might be better for the future of the sport

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I have no inside information, but I'm almost 100% sure this is wrong.  PROWL is a private entity that aims to make wrestling more popular and make money.  Maybe if it is successful, they will work together with US Wrestling, but I don't think US Wrestling is going to determine their world team members in a drastically different way just because an unproven start-up tells them they should.

 

So you have no inside information but are almost 100% sure...great logic. The way flo was reporting, it sounded like a done deal.

 

Also, USA wrestling is not doing it because a start-up told them to, they're doing it because of $$$$$$ 

 

Sounded like USA wrestling would be getting at least $500,000 

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Of course someone from Flo would say that. Please explain why wrestling won't work on major networks and why Flo is the best avenue.

 

You can tell me this isn't a competitor for Flo, but who broadcast the WTT's this year and who would be broadcasting it if this happens? Maybe "competitor" isn't the right word, but these two groups certainly have opposing interests. We're not dumb. This would not be good for Flo's business as they would lose a marquee event.

 

a little presumptive, aren't you?

 

all i'm saying is it isn't as simple as prowl saying it's going to be on TV.

 

other than that, i won't say anything else as your posting record is clearly combative. so think what you want. 

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a little presumptive, aren't you?

 

all i'm saying is it isn't as simple as prowl saying it's going to be on TV.

 

other than that, i won't say anything else as your posting record is clearly combative. so think what you want. 

Maybe they will pay NBC to broadcast it?  Kind of like an informercial.  This venture is clearly going to be heavily subsidized if they are paying USAW 500K to change the WTT qualification process, so why not go a step further.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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So you have no inside information but are almost 100% sure...great logic. The way flo was reporting, it sounded like a done deal.

 

Also, USA wrestling is not doing it because a start-up told them to, they're doing it because of $$$$$$ 

 

Sounded like USA wrestling would be getting at least $500,000 

 

Flo has said lots of things ("our PSU/OkSU stream will work great!" comes to mind) that turned out not to be true.  

 

I'm just thinking about this from a business standpoint.  A credible organization generally doesn't make sweeping changes at the request of a start-up unless/until the start-up proves their concept.  I suppose if there is some huge up-front guaranteed money, that could change things, but where is that coming from?  If investors are so confident that PROWL will get the ratings needed to make money that they are willing to invest in it, then USA Wrestling shouldn't take their word for it.... they should wait and see and confirm that presumption is correct before reforming everything at PROWL's request.

Edited by rpm002

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Flo has said lots of things ("our PSU/OkSU stream will work great!" comes to mind) that turned out not to be true.  

 

I'm just thinking about this from a business standpoint.  A credible organization generally doesn't make sweeping changes at the request of a start-up unless/until the start-up proves their concept.  I suppose if there is some huge up-front guaranteed money, that could change things, but where is that coming from?  If investors are so confident that PROWL will get the ratings needed to make money that they are willing to invest in it, then USA Wrestling shouldn't take their word for it.... they should wait and see and confirm that presumption is correct before reforming everything at PROWL's request.

 

Prowl isn't ever going to make money. In terms of a business standpoint it's quite simple. As long as the billionaire is willing to lose a couple million a year, they will stay in business. USAW sees this as an opportunity to make money for themselves and for the athletes.  In many ways that's great because it will help the world team be professional athletes and focus on their training.  In other ways its terrible because our qualification system will be less likely to put the best team on the mat. 

 

For flo this is a complete loss.  They are losing their marquee event not because somebody else created a better business model, but rather because somebody else is wiling to lose a lot of money on it.  Many (including myself) will no longer subscribe to flo and their streaming service may have to cater to HS events.   

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a little presumptive, aren't you?

 

all i'm saying is it isn't as simple as prowl saying it's going to be on TV.

 

other than that, i won't say anything else as your posting record is clearly combative. so think what you want.

 

Next time, spare the ad hominem and just say "I can't back up my claim."

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Flo has said lots of things ("our PSU/OkSU stream will work great!" comes to mind) that turned out not to be true.

 

I'm just thinking about this from a business standpoint. A credible organization generally doesn't make sweeping changes at the request of a start-up unless/until the start-up proves their concept.

A stream not working and reporting on information they received from Xander Schultz—completely different things. Their information sounded pretty credible.

 

From a business standpoint, USA Wrestling is probably looking at it as a “nothing to lose everything to gain situation”. If this doesn’t make more money for them, build fan interest, or we don’t have a good showing at the World Championships, they can just go back to how things have been. They’re probably very confident in our top level talent and think the best guys will make the team regardless of the process. Building fan interest and making money are 2 things this new process presents that were non existent in the old process.

 

There are some things they need to iron out-what happens if 2 NCAA champs want to go the same weight? Or don't/can’t wrestle in the tournament? What’s the tie breaker if/when 3 guys finish 2-1 in the round robin?

 

I still think the new process presents intrigue and could grow our fan base. Think the process is creative and has potential to give our top guys pay they deserve.

 

I’d like to know Flo’s thoughts on this if it were their idea and being streamed on their platform.

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Guys, Flo has a contract for streaming rights for major USAW events through (I believe) 2024.

 

Pretty sure Flo believes whatever the format of the WTT, they have the streaming rights. So there are some discussions that need to be finalized when (not if) TV is involved, hopefully (IMO) we avoid the ugliness that occurred prior to the National Duals finale in Stillwater.

 

Willie is obviously closer with the details on all this and likely can’t share internal business just because people ask him to.

 

I’ll have the PROWL folks on Short Time in the near future (when they can actually explain vs their tease last time).

 

Regardless of your opinion of the format and the factions involved, it’s something worth paying attention to, not just pooping on the idea before it even takes off.

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I listened to the FRL guys on this.  They all slammed the idea.

 

Based on what I heard, I think the PROWL idea is great.  It puts money into athletes' pockets, and it creates a fan-friendly event.  Any professional wrestling league is going to need very deep pockets for years until it starts to turn a profit.  Maybe PROWL can turn a profit at some point down the road if it is given a chance.  How long did the UFC take to turn a profit? I know it lost a lot of money for a very long time, but it looks like it's in good shape now.

 

The NFL and college football thrived in part because they limited the length of their seasons and the number of events to one a week (in the olden days).  These PROWL events each week will have a lot of meaning.

 

The FRL guys seemed to think that this process will fail to pick the best competitor.  If a guy is really going to be a world medalist, the format won't matter much.  It would be nice for the best 2 out of 3 series in the world team trials finals to be a two-day series with two weigh-ins to simulate worlds, just so that we know that guys can make the weight and perform.  Or you could just have them weigh in two days in a row before the finals, I guess.  In addition, this format does not give returning world medalists extra protection (unless they claim to be injured), which I see as a positive thing.

 

It's reasonable to say that this format will make things harder on the RTCs, but if PROWL becomes the way that the world teams are chosen, the RTCs will have to adapt to the new reality or their NCAA teams will become less competitive.  Running an RTC is a burden for every college coaching staff no matter what, but it is the price of doing business.

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I listened to the FRL guys on this.  They all slammed the idea.

 

 

that's a bit of a mischaracterization. to be clear, I don't dislike the idea of Prowl. What I disagree with is some of the processes in its current iteration. 

Edited by Husker_Du

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