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Jon_Kozak

Prowl explained...

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that's a bit of a mischaracterization. to be clear, I don't dislike the idea of Prowl. What I disagree with is some of the processes in its current iteration. 

 

Okay -- that's fair.  The tone of the show's discussion was very negative.

 

I think you said that you want a pro league, and you want PROWL to get this right -- but that this proposal is not getting it right.

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all things aside with PROWL/USA/Flo...

 

personally, i think it is ludicrous that we will still pick any of our UWW teams (age level and senior) without using the same weigh in procedures they will be faced with starting next year... at the very least it should be same day weigh in for one day tourneys... it makes absolutely no sense to not force the athlete to compete under the same (or similar) circumstances they will face at world(s)...

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Guys, Flo has a contract for streaming rights for major USAW events through (I believe) 2024.

 

Pretty sure Flo believes whatever the format of the WTT, they have the streaming rights. So there are some discussions that need to be finalized when (not if) TV is involved, hopefully (IMO) we avoid the ugliness that occurred prior to the National Duals finale in Stillwater.

 

 

 

PROWL is looking at major TV networks for the venture. 

 

 

How do/can the TV networks and FLO contract coexist? According to this article, FLO has exclusive rights for basically all of USA Wrestling's events, including the World Team Trials through 2024. 

 

So, PROWL coming in...2025?!?!

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How do/can the TV networks and FLO contract coexist? According to this article, FLO has exclusive rights for basically all of USA Wrestling's events, including the World Team Trials through 2024. 

 

So, PROWL coming in...2025?!?!

 

That should give them enough time to prove the concept. :)

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How do/can the TV networks and FLO contract coexist? According to this article, FLO has exclusive rights for basically all of USA Wrestling's events, including the World Team Trials through 2024. 

 

So, PROWL coming in...2025?!?!

 

 

"USA Wrestling will exclusively use FloArena, the sport's premier turnkey meet management software and scoring platform, through 2020 for a minimum of six major events each year, including World Team TrialsUniversity and UWW Cadet NationalsUS OpenUWW Junior World Team Trials, the Dave Schultz Memorial International, and the Bill Farrell Memorial International Open."

 

It looks like the contract is only for the events in bold -- since PROWL didn't exist at that time, I assume that Flo would not (necessarily) be covering PROWL.

 

Whether Flo gets the PROWL contract or not, PROWL's format would provide about two months worth of regular storylines for them to cover leading up to the WTT.

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So USAW leadership sells the rights to the WTT to Flo until 2024 just as trackwrestling is monetizing. Seems like a pretty dumb move rather than do a short term deal and have the two companies bid against each other (I said this at the time of the original press release).

 

They then change their mind and give WTT to PROWL in a qualification format so nonsensical it's clear little input was sought from athletes or RTC coaches. The only good thing about the PROWL format is that a billionaire is willing to throw money into it and fund the athletes. It is not a sustainable model.

 

If the above info provided by that press release and the FRL podcast is all true, USAW needs new leadership. Flo will legally have broadcast rights to all of the prowl events because they are now the WTT. It's not flo's fault USAW stupidly sold the rights of their most valuable event indefinitely. They are going to have to buy out Flo to make this work. What a disaster of an idea.

Edited by Billyhoyle

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I think this is both a good and a bad thing, personally.

 

Positives

 

1. It gives money to the athletes that are qualified.

2. We have a 7 week season of legit professional wrestling that may or may not be broadcasted on television.

3.The stakes are high now higher to win the US Open (not just place) and Last Chance Qualifier. It also puts even more importance on winning an NCAA title (Not that it needed much more).

 

Negatives

 

1.I'm not sure that this is necessarily a negative and just more of a point, but we just won the WC with our traditional way of doing things. Does it really need to change?

2. Nothing is very clear when it comes to the "common sense" questions. I'll get to what I mean by that in just a bit.

3.With only 4 wrestlers being allowed to compete for the spot it really leaves very little opportunity for our country to bring the best guy... Keep in mind the fact that when Molinaro won the OTT he was the 9 seed. He didn't have NCAA eligibility, didn't win the US Open, and didn't compete at the Last Chance. 

4. Weighing in multiple times over 10 weeks. This could be very hard on the body and it doesn't seem to be very beneficial with the new weigh in rules. I do have mixed feelings on this though.

 

Common Sense Questions

 

1. What happens if 2 or 3 NCAA Champs all want to go the same weight? An example would be what if the 141,149, and 157 NCAA Champs all wanted to go 70 kg. Who would be granted the spot?

2.What if the US Open champion was the World Team member last year? Does the runner up get the US Open champs spot?

3. What if the US Open champion is also the NCAA Champion this season? Does the same rule apply?

4. What about weights that don't have a returning world team member? If we are getting 2 new weights added next freestyle season then who will get the returning world team member slots for those?

5.What if a returning world team member goes up a weight? Does he have to go through the same process? Who gets that spot if he moves up?

 

How I Would Do This

 

I like the idea for this to an extent. A 7 week season, athletes getting paid, events being televised, every match has big time implications. All of those are great things if you ask me. Although, I think it would be best if we took 8 wrestlers under the same format on a 9 week season. Lets just say you take the top 3 from the US Open, have a limit of 2 NCAA champs per weight, the returning world team member/medalist, Last Chance Qualifier Champ, and a wild card. In order to get paid the amounts that were stated, you must place in the top 4.

 

One thing I really don't think should be an issue that a lot of people seem to have a problem with is the idea of weighing in multiple times over a 7 week period. Guys, these are professional athletes and have done this their whole lives. If they can't make the weight they should probably move up. We learned that when we were in grade school. That's just my 2 cents though. Not that it matters.

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 Guys, these are professional athletes and have done this their whole lives. If they can't make the weight they should probably move up. We learned that when we were in grade school. That's just my 2 cents though. Not that it matters.

 

With this logic why not have them weight in every day?  "If they can't make it, they should probably move up."  There's a difference between what these men cut vs what you cut in grade school.  Making weight takes extraordinary discipline for many of the people on the team, and moving up isn't an option because there's 20lb between each weight class.  It's not a 4lb difference like your grade school days.  

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Molinaro was very close to medalling in the Olympics, but in this format, he would not have been one of the 4 wrestling.

 

Gilman did medal at Worlds, but in this format, he probably would not have qualified.  He did win Last Chance, but only because he was going up against an extremely weak field.  He nearly lost in the final of that event as it was. If guys like NaTo/Graff wrestled him on that day, the odds are good he would not have made the Prowl field of 4.  But Darian Cruz would have.  So please explain to me why this is a good idea.

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With this logic why not have them weight in every day? "If they can't make it, they should probably move up." There's a difference between what these men cut vs what you cut in grade school. Making weight takes extraordinary discipline for many of the people on the team, and moving up isn't an option because there's 20lb between each weight class. It's not a 4lb difference like your grade school days.

I think youre focusing way too much on the fact that i said "we learned this in grade school". By no means am I saying that they are only cutting a couple of pounds to make weight. I am saying that in a format where they have to make weight multiple times they have the choice of either moving up or making the weight. Thats what we learned in grade school. Secondly, they obviously wouldn't make weight everyday. There is a system of every 2 weeks or so being put into play. I'm not saying it will be easy on them, but it may just be how the chips fall. Thats where that decision will have to come into play before the freestyle season begins.

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I think youre focusing way too much on the fact that i said "we learned this in grade school". By no means am I saying that they are only cutting a couple of pounds to make weight. I am saying that in a format where they have to make weight multiple times they have the choice of either moving up or making the weight. Thats what we learned in grade school. Secondly, they obviously wouldn't make weight everyday. There is a system of every 2 weeks or so being put into play. I'm not saying it will be easy on them, but it may just be how the chips fall. Thats where that decision will have to come into play before the freestyle season begins.

The goal of the WTT should be to identify the best people to make the world team. That means imitating the weigh in system and procedure at worlds. The goal of WTT should not be to create interest in a wrestling league that will only exist because it will be highly subsidized from a billionaire. I'm fine with the wrestling league, but don't make it part of the trials process. Edited by Billyhoyle

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The goal of the WTT should be to identify the best people to make the world team. That means imitating the weigh in system and procedure at worlds. The goal of WTT should not be to create interest in a wrestling league that will only exist because it will be highly subsidized from a billionaire. I'm fine with the wrestling league, but don't make it part of the trials process.

Agreed. They can even make it a qualifier for the W/OTTs, but it absolutely should not be what sends you to the olympics/worlds.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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The goal of the WTT should be to identify the best people to make the world team. That means imitating the weigh in system and procedure at worlds. The goal of WTT should not be to create interest in a wrestling league that will only exist because it will be highly subsidized from a billionaire. I'm fine with the wrestling league, but don't make it part of the trials process.

I absolutely agree that it shouldn't be apart of the triala process. I was just stating gow i would change it if it had to be that way. I believe were actually more on the same page. I want a pro leauge but not at the peril of our trials

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This cuts to the heart of the matter right here.  Since Novogratz is donating to USA Wrestling he seems to have leverage on their decisions.  There is a strong appearance that this leverage is causing USAW to select a  TV deal in favor of Novogratz's relative...

 

If you are going to be a major donor to USAW should it come with strings attached? 

 

Should billionaire donors expect USAW to behave in a certain way?

 

Should philanthropy come with strings attached?

 

When you donate to the local kid's wrestling club do you expect a seat at the table when they decide their schedule or when they choose a vendor?

 

The goal of the WTT should be to identify the best people to make the world team. That means imitating the weigh in system and procedure at worlds. The goal of WTT should not be to create interest in a wrestling league that will only exist because it will be highly subsidized from a billionaire. I'm fine with the wrestling league, but don't make it part of the trials process.

Edited by mostTD

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This cuts to the heart of the matter right here.  Since Novogratz is donating to USA Wrestling he seems to have leverage on their decisions.  There is a strong appearance that this leverage is causing USAW to select a  TV deal in favor of Novogratz's relative...

 

If you are going to be a major donor to USAW should it come with strings attached? 

 

Should billionaire donors expect USAW to behave in a certain way?

 

Should philanthropy come with strings attached?

 

When you donate to the local kid's wrestling club do you expect a seat at the table when they decide their schedule or when they choose a vendor?

 

I know he's honorary chair of USWF, but does anyone beyond that the nature of his involvement with USAW? 

 

It's not at all abnormal for significant donors to have influence on 501©(3)'s organizations.  It's the responsibility of the USAW management, Board of Directors, Executive Committee, et al, to oversee the operation and ensure that pressure from third parties doesn't work counter to the interests of the organization.  

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Looks to me we have confirmation that some form of PROWL will be happening in 2018.

 

See here http://usawevents.sportngin.com/events and note that there are 3 entries for  Final X: Senior Freestyle World Team Trials on June 9, 16, and 23.

 

That would seem to jive with the idea of 4 wrestlers participating in a round robin tournament on those 3 days to get to the "Final X" who make the Senior National team.

 

There is also US Open: Senior Nationals in late April and Senior Freestyle World Team Trials Challenge Tournament in mid May.   

 

I still have a lot of questions (similar to those discussed earlier in this discussion) about how exactly the 4 are chosen.  For example, what if a world team member and 2 NCAA champions all want to wrestle at the same weight (along with the winners of the April/May tournaments, obviously)?  Do you make the 2 NCAA champions have a wrestle off to see who gets the spot? If so, when does that happen?  At the Challenge Tournament?  What about the new weights with no world team member returning?  Do you take the 2nd place finisher from the US Open?  Or 2nd place from the challenge tournament? (Definitely need to wrestle for True Second then).  And of course, how do weigh ins work for all these events?  Is there any allowance?  What happens if someone doesn't make weight/gets hurt?

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