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Prowl explained...


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#41 Husker_Du

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:43 PM

Of course someone from Flo would say that. Please explain why wrestling won't work on major networks and why Flo is the best avenue.

You can tell me this isn't a competitor for Flo, but who broadcast the WTT's this year and who would be broadcasting it if this happens? Maybe "competitor" isn't the right word, but these two groups certainly have opposing interests. We're not dumb. This would not be good for Flo's business as they would lose a marquee event.

 

a little presumptive, aren't you?

 

all i'm saying is it isn't as simple as prowl saying it's going to be on TV.

 

other than that, i won't say anything else as your posting record is clearly combative. so think what you want. 


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#42 Billyhoyle

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:22 PM

a little presumptive, aren't you?

 

all i'm saying is it isn't as simple as prowl saying it's going to be on TV.

 

other than that, i won't say anything else as your posting record is clearly combative. so think what you want. 

Maybe they will pay NBC to broadcast it?  Kind of like an informercial.  This venture is clearly going to be heavily subsidized if they are paying USAW 500K to change the WTT qualification process, so why not go a step further.  


Edited by Billyhoyle, 13 October 2017 - 02:23 PM.


#43 rpm002

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 04:27 PM

So you have no inside information but are almost 100% sure...great logic. The way flo was reporting, it sounded like a done deal.

 

Also, USA wrestling is not doing it because a start-up told them to, they're doing it because of $$$$$$ 

 

Sounded like USA wrestling would be getting at least $500,000 

 

Flo has said lots of things ("our PSU/OkSU stream will work great!" comes to mind) that turned out not to be true.  

 

I'm just thinking about this from a business standpoint.  A credible organization generally doesn't make sweeping changes at the request of a start-up unless/until the start-up proves their concept.  I suppose if there is some huge up-front guaranteed money, that could change things, but where is that coming from?  If investors are so confident that PROWL will get the ratings needed to make money that they are willing to invest in it, then USA Wrestling shouldn't take their word for it.... they should wait and see and confirm that presumption is correct before reforming everything at PROWL's request.


Edited by rpm002, 13 October 2017 - 04:29 PM.

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#44 Billyhoyle

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:25 PM

Flo has said lots of things ("our PSU/OkSU stream will work great!" comes to mind) that turned out not to be true.  

 

I'm just thinking about this from a business standpoint.  A credible organization generally doesn't make sweeping changes at the request of a start-up unless/until the start-up proves their concept.  I suppose if there is some huge up-front guaranteed money, that could change things, but where is that coming from?  If investors are so confident that PROWL will get the ratings needed to make money that they are willing to invest in it, then USA Wrestling shouldn't take their word for it.... they should wait and see and confirm that presumption is correct before reforming everything at PROWL's request.

 

Prowl isn't ever going to make money. In terms of a business standpoint it's quite simple. As long as the billionaire is willing to lose a couple million a year, they will stay in business. USAW sees this as an opportunity to make money for themselves and for the athletes.  In many ways that's great because it will help the world team be professional athletes and focus on their training.  In other ways its terrible because our qualification system will be less likely to put the best team on the mat. 

 

For flo this is a complete loss.  They are losing their marquee event not because somebody else created a better business model, but rather because somebody else is wiling to lose a lot of money on it.  Many (including myself) will no longer subscribe to flo and their streaming service may have to cater to HS events.   


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#45 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:18 PM

a little presumptive, aren't you?
 
all i'm saying is it isn't as simple as prowl saying it's going to be on TV.
 
other than that, i won't say anything else as your posting record is clearly combative. so think what you want.


Next time, spare the ad hominem and just say "I can't back up my claim."
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#46 Husker_Du

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:08 AM

it's not ad hominem to say you're presumptive after you decided for yourself what i meant.


Edited by Husker_Du, 14 October 2017 - 01:11 AM.

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#47 Jon_Kozak

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:37 AM

Flo has said lots of things ("our PSU/OkSU stream will work great!" comes to mind) that turned out not to be true.

I'm just thinking about this from a business standpoint. A credible organization generally doesn't make sweeping changes at the request of a start-up unless/until the start-up proves their concept.


A stream not working and reporting on information they received from Xander Schultz—completely different things. Their information sounded pretty credible.

From a business standpoint, USA Wrestling is probably looking at it as a “nothing to lose everything to gain situation”. If this doesn’t make more money for them, build fan interest, or we don’t have a good showing at the World Championships, they can just go back to how things have been. They’re probably very confident in our top level talent and think the best guys will make the team regardless of the process. Building fan interest and making money are 2 things this new process presents that were non existent in the old process.

There are some things they need to iron out-what happens if 2 NCAA champs want to go the same weight? Or don't/can’t wrestle in the tournament? What’s the tie breaker if/when 3 guys finish 2-1 in the round robin?

I still think the new process presents intrigue and could grow our fan base. Think the process is creative and has potential to give our top guys pay they deserve.

I’d like to know Flo’s thoughts on this if it were their idea and being streamed on their platform.

#48 JasonBryant

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 02:21 AM

Guys, Flo has a contract for streaming rights for major USAW events through (I believe) 2024.

Pretty sure Flo believes whatever the format of the WTT, they have the streaming rights. So there are some discussions that need to be finalized when (not if) TV is involved, hopefully (IMO) we avoid the ugliness that occurred prior to the National Duals finale in Stillwater.

Willie is obviously closer with the details on all this and likely can’t share internal business just because people ask him to.

I’ll have the PROWL folks on Short Time in the near future (when they can actually explain vs their tease last time).

Regardless of your opinion of the format and the factions involved, it’s something worth paying attention to, not just pooping on the idea before it even takes off.
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#49 quanon

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:28 AM

I listened to the FRL guys on this.  They all slammed the idea.

 

Based on what I heard, I think the PROWL idea is great.  It puts money into athletes' pockets, and it creates a fan-friendly event.  Any professional wrestling league is going to need very deep pockets for years until it starts to turn a profit.  Maybe PROWL can turn a profit at some point down the road if it is given a chance.  How long did the UFC take to turn a profit? I know it lost a lot of money for a very long time, but it looks like it's in good shape now.

 

The NFL and college football thrived in part because they limited the length of their seasons and the number of events to one a week (in the olden days).  These PROWL events each week will have a lot of meaning.

 

The FRL guys seemed to think that this process will fail to pick the best competitor.  If a guy is really going to be a world medalist, the format won't matter much.  It would be nice for the best 2 out of 3 series in the world team trials finals to be a two-day series with two weigh-ins to simulate worlds, just so that we know that guys can make the weight and perform.  Or you could just have them weigh in two days in a row before the finals, I guess.  In addition, this format does not give returning world medalists extra protection (unless they claim to be injured), which I see as a positive thing.

 

It's reasonable to say that this format will make things harder on the RTCs, but if PROWL becomes the way that the world teams are chosen, the RTCs will have to adapt to the new reality or their NCAA teams will become less competitive.  Running an RTC is a burden for every college coaching staff no matter what, but it is the price of doing business.



#50 Husker_Du

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:36 AM

I listened to the FRL guys on this.  They all slammed the idea.

 

 

that's a bit of a mischaracterization. to be clear, I don't dislike the idea of Prowl. What I disagree with is some of the processes in its current iteration. 


Edited by Husker_Du, 14 October 2017 - 03:36 AM.

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#51 quanon

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:44 AM

that's a bit of a mischaracterization. to be clear, I don't dislike the idea of Prowl. What I disagree with is some of the processes in its current iteration. 

 

Okay -- that's fair.  The tone of the show's discussion was very negative.

 

I think you said that you want a pro league, and you want PROWL to get this right -- but that this proposal is not getting it right.



#52 Husker_Du

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:51 AM

yes, sir. that would be a fair summation.


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#53 LJB

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 04:58 AM

all things aside with PROWL/USA/Flo...

 

personally, i think it is ludicrous that we will still pick any of our UWW teams (age level and senior) without using the same weigh in procedures they will be faced with starting next year... at the very least it should be same day weigh in for one day tourneys... it makes absolutely no sense to not force the athlete to compete under the same (or similar) circumstances they will face at world(s)...


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#54 Jon_Kozak

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 05:05 AM

Guys, Flo has a contract for streaming rights for major USAW events through (I believe) 2024.

Pretty sure Flo believes whatever the format of the WTT, they have the streaming rights. So there are some discussions that need to be finalized when (not if) TV is involved, hopefully (IMO) we avoid the ugliness that occurred prior to the National Duals finale in Stillwater.
 

 

 

PROWL is looking at major TV networks for the venture. 

 

 

How do/can the TV networks and FLO contract coexist? According to this article, FLO has exclusive rights for basically all of USA Wrestling's events, including the World Team Trials through 2024. 

 

So, PROWL coming in...2025?!?!


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#55 rpm002

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 05:21 AM

How do/can the TV networks and FLO contract coexist? According to this article, FLO has exclusive rights for basically all of USA Wrestling's events, including the World Team Trials through 2024. 

 

So, PROWL coming in...2025?!?!

 

That should give them enough time to prove the concept. :)


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#56 quanon

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 06:23 AM

How do/can the TV networks and FLO contract coexist? According to this article, FLO has exclusive rights for basically all of USA Wrestling's events, including the World Team Trials through 2024. 

 

So, PROWL coming in...2025?!?!

 

 

"USA Wrestling will exclusively use FloArena, the sport's premier turnkey meet management software and scoring platform, through 2020 for a minimum of six major events each year, including World Team TrialsUniversity and UWW Cadet NationalsUS OpenUWW Junior World Team Trials, the Dave Schultz Memorial International, and the Bill Farrell Memorial International Open."

 

It looks like the contract is only for the events in bold -- since PROWL didn't exist at that time, I assume that Flo would not (necessarily) be covering PROWL.

 

Whether Flo gets the PROWL contract or not, PROWL's format would provide about two months worth of regular storylines for them to cover leading up to the WTT.



#57 Billyhoyle

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 08:00 AM

So USAW leadership sells the rights to the WTT to Flo until 2024 just as trackwrestling is monetizing. Seems like a pretty dumb move rather than do a short term deal and have the two companies bid against each other (I said this at the time of the original press release).

They then change their mind and give WTT to PROWL in a qualification format so nonsensical it's clear little input was sought from athletes or RTC coaches. The only good thing about the PROWL format is that a billionaire is willing to throw money into it and fund the athletes. It is not a sustainable model.

If the above info provided by that press release and the FRL podcast is all true, USAW needs new leadership. Flo will legally have broadcast rights to all of the prowl events because they are now the WTT. It's not flo's fault USAW stupidly sold the rights of their most valuable event indefinitely. They are going to have to buy out Flo to make this work. What a disaster of an idea.

Edited by Billyhoyle, 14 October 2017 - 08:24 AM.

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#58 mostTD

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 02:12 AM

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Edited by mostTD, 16 October 2017 - 02:14 AM.


#59 broyles_152

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 10:17 AM

I think this is both a good and a bad thing, personally.

 

Positives

 

1. It gives money to the athletes that are qualified.

2. We have a 7 week season of legit professional wrestling that may or may not be broadcasted on television.

3.The stakes are high now higher to win the US Open (not just place) and Last Chance Qualifier. It also puts even more importance on winning an NCAA title (Not that it needed much more).

 

Negatives

 

1.I'm not sure that this is necessarily a negative and just more of a point, but we just won the WC with our traditional way of doing things. Does it really need to change?

2. Nothing is very clear when it comes to the "common sense" questions. I'll get to what I mean by that in just a bit.

3.With only 4 wrestlers being allowed to compete for the spot it really leaves very little opportunity for our country to bring the best guy... Keep in mind the fact that when Molinaro won the OTT he was the 9 seed. He didn't have NCAA eligibility, didn't win the US Open, and didn't compete at the Last Chance. 

4. Weighing in multiple times over 10 weeks. This could be very hard on the body and it doesn't seem to be very beneficial with the new weigh in rules. I do have mixed feelings on this though.

 

Common Sense Questions

 

1. What happens if 2 or 3 NCAA Champs all want to go the same weight? An example would be what if the 141,149, and 157 NCAA Champs all wanted to go 70 kg. Who would be granted the spot?

2.What if the US Open champion was the World Team member last year? Does the runner up get the US Open champs spot?

3. What if the US Open champion is also the NCAA Champion this season? Does the same rule apply?

4. What about weights that don't have a returning world team member? If we are getting 2 new weights added next freestyle season then who will get the returning world team member slots for those?

5.What if a returning world team member goes up a weight? Does he have to go through the same process? Who gets that spot if he moves up?

 

How I Would Do This

 

I like the idea for this to an extent. A 7 week season, athletes getting paid, events being televised, every match has big time implications. All of those are great things if you ask me. Although, I think it would be best if we took 8 wrestlers under the same format on a 9 week season. Lets just say you take the top 3 from the US Open, have a limit of 2 NCAA champs per weight, the returning world team member/medalist, Last Chance Qualifier Champ, and a wild card. In order to get paid the amounts that were stated, you must place in the top 4.

 

One thing I really don't think should be an issue that a lot of people seem to have a problem with is the idea of weighing in multiple times over a 7 week period. Guys, these are professional athletes and have done this their whole lives. If they can't make the weight they should probably move up. We learned that when we were in grade school. That's just my 2 cents though. Not that it matters.



#60 Billyhoyle

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 12:15 PM

 Guys, these are professional athletes and have done this their whole lives. If they can't make the weight they should probably move up. We learned that when we were in grade school. That's just my 2 cents though. Not that it matters.

 

With this logic why not have them weight in every day?  "If they can't make it, they should probably move up."  There's a difference between what these men cut vs what you cut in grade school.  Making weight takes extraordinary discipline for many of the people on the team, and moving up isn't an option because there's 20lb between each weight class.  It's not a 4lb difference like your grade school days.  






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