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ACLU going after NCWA

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And suggesting that she should enter the MSU or ESU open is equally absurd.  Those are tournaments that average D2/D3 male wrestlers get destroyed in.  She wants to wrestle other club wrestlers because they are at her level of skill. 

Why is that absurd? She is a back-to-back national champion.

 

Or, are you saying that there are significant differences in women and men when they compete that it is acceptable for club teams to compete at those opens but not for a woman, even a national champion woman, to compete at those events?

 

It is curious that you say it isn't fun for her to get destroyed but I have known many wrestlers who enter events way over their head and get destroyed who loved the chance to compete against the best. What I have never known is any man to enjoy competing against a woman and destroying her on the mat.

 

There is nothing absurd about having an organization with specific leagues for each gender. The NCWA is growing women's wrestling. That doesn't mean they have provided each and every person with everything they want. She chose a school that did not have a women's wrestling program and the NCWA provided her with the opportunity to represent her school and compete for a national title. She chose the school knowing there was no program and the opportunities would be limited. She is in year three and the situation hasn't improved. If wrestling were a focus, she would be somewhere else. It is ancillary.

 

There is no reason for the NCWA to change their policy. She should not be compelling anyone, through force of the state, to accommodate her hobby.

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Why is that absurd? She is a back-to-back national champion.Or, are you saying that there are significant differences in women and men when they compete that it is acceptable for club teams to compete at those opens but not for a woman, even a national champion woman, to compete at those events?It is curious that you say it isn't fun for her to get destroyed but I have known many wrestlers who enter events way over their head and get destroyed who loved the chance to compete against the best. What I have never known is any man to enjoy competing against a woman and destroying her on the mat.There is nothing absurd about having an organization with specific leagues for each gender. The NCWA is growing women's wrestling. That doesn't mean they have provided each and every person with everything they want. She chose a school that did not have a women's wrestling program and the NCWA provided her with the opportunity to represent her school and compete for a national title. She chose the school knowing there was no program and the opportunities would be limited. She is in year three and the situation hasn't improved. If wrestling were a focus, she would be somewhere else. It is ancillary.There is no reason for the NCWA to change their policy. She should not be compelling anyone, through force of the state, to accommodate her hobby.

I like the way you spun things here. Very well done. All wrestlers are equal so she should enter these opens. But since she's a woman she shouldn't get to compete for her school team very nice. And you're right she shouldn't be compelling anyone, through force of the state, to accommodate her hobby. She should have been given the go ahead from the get go. It's the NCWA's fault the ACLU needs to step in.

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I like the way you spun things here. Very well done. All wrestlers are equal so she should enter these opens. But since she's a woman she shouldn't get to compete for her school team very nice. And you're right she shouldn't be compelling anyone, through force of the state, to accommodate her hobby. She should have been given the go ahead from the get go. It's the NCWA's fault the ACLU needs to step in.

Do you still believe that the ACLU is acting like bullies in this situation?

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I like the way you spun things here. Very well done. All wrestlers are equal so she should enter these opens. But since she's a woman she shouldn't get to compete for her school team very nice. And you're right she shouldn't be compelling anyone, through force of the state, to accommodate her hobby. She should have been given the go ahead from the get go. It's the NCWA's fault the ACLU needs to step in.

Without the NCWA's efforts, and similar policies implemented in places like Texas, there would be no NCWA event for her to compete in and there would have been no National Championships for her.

 

The NCWA knows what they are doing. They are growing women's wrestling. Without the NCWA's work, there would only be the EMU open for her to compete in.

 

If you don't like the NCWA's policies you can start your own org with different rules. But the NCWA's rules are completely reasonable.

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Without the NCWA's efforts, and similar policies implemented in places like Texas, there would be no NCWA event for her to compete in and there would have been no National Championships for her.The NCWA knows what they are doing. They are growing women's wrestling. Without the NCWA's work, there would only be the EMU open for her to compete in.If you don't like the NCWA's policies you can start your own org with different rules. But the NCWA's rules are completely reasonable.

Paragraphs 1 and 2 I generally agree with. Paragraph 3 I disagree with. This is America. The land of checks and balances. Not every decision that the NCWA makes is right. In this country you that the right to fight for changes you believe in. Like you said in an earlier post, "it one of the things that make this country great." You believe they're right and reasonable. I believe they're wrong and being unreasonable. As for you if you don't like it start your own organization, that's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Paragraphs 1 and 2 I generally agree with. Paragraph 3 I disagree with. This is America. The land of checks and balances. Not every decision that the NCWA makes is right. You believe they're right and reasonable. I believe they're wrong and unreasonable.

Except she is not compelled to join the NCWA. In fact, as a team of one, she can join any association that will have her as a member. There is no monopoly by the NCWA. Part of the complaint is that the NCWA doesn't have a stronghold. There are so many Michigan schools where the NCWA doesn't have a presence.

 

We have free association here. She can elect to go to a school with a WCWA program to wrestle with other women, or a D3 wrestling program and join the men's program, or an NCWA school as she has done, or create her own association and get her schools and neighboring schools to join along in some co-ed or women's league.

 

Other than a mentality of entitlement, I don't believe that there is anything here that warrants the courts stepping in.

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Except she is not compelled to join the NCWA. In fact, as a team of one, she can join any association that will have her as a member. There is no monopoly by the NCWA. Part of the complaint is that the NCWA doesn't have a stronghold. There are so many Michigan schools where the NCWA doesn't have a presence.We have free association here. She can elect to go to a school with a WCWA program to wrestle with other women, or a D3 wrestling program and join the men's program, or an NCWA school as she has done, or create her own association and get her schools and neighboring schools to join along in some co-ed or women's league.Other than a mentality of entitlement, I don't believe that there is anything here that warrants the courts stepping in.

That's your opinion. In my opinion as well as the opinion of the wrestlers at UM Dearborn you're wrong.

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That's your opinion. In my opinion as well as the opinion of the wrestlers at UM Dearborn you're wrong.

Yes, we do have a difference of opinion. An opinion about how other people run their organization. Which means it doesn't really matter what we think because it isn't our call. It is a private organization that can make any policy they wish.

 

When that happens, you have options for remedies. The most basic of which is to not be a part of that organization. And the most American of which is to create your own organization.

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Yes, we do have a difference of opinion. An opinion about how other people run their organization. Which means it doesn't really matter what we think because it isn't our call. It is a private organization that can make any policy they wish.When that happens, you have options for remedies. The most basic of which is to not be a part of that organization. And the most American of which is to create your own organization.

And it's just as American to sue that organization when you feel you've been wronged by that organization.

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Billyhole,

 

Are you saying the men are at her skill level?

I'm saying she'd likely get wrecked at a D1 open, much like pretty much anyone who doesn't wrestle D1 (or isn't a D2/D3/JUCO AA caliber wrestler). So i'd understand wanting her to compete at an NCWA event where she could face people at her level.  Telling her that wrestling a D1 open is an option is like telling somebody who'd like to run a local 5K that she should enter the Boston Marathon instead.  

 

Why is that absurd? She is a back-to-back national champion.

 

Or, are you saying that there are significant differences in women and men when they compete that it is acceptable for club teams to compete at those opens but not for a woman, even a national champion woman, to compete at those events?

 

It is curious that you say it isn't fun for her to get destroyed but I have known many wrestlers who enter events way over their head and get destroyed who loved the chance to compete against the best. What I have never known is any man to enjoy competing against a woman and destroying her on the mat.

 

There is nothing absurd about having an organization with specific leagues for each gender. The NCWA is growing women's wrestling. That doesn't mean they have provided each and every person with everything they want. She chose a school that did not have a women's wrestling program and the NCWA provided her with the opportunity to represent her school and compete for a national title. She chose the school knowing there was no program and the opportunities would be limited. She is in year three and the situation hasn't improved. If wrestling were a focus, she would be somewhere else. It is ancillary.

 

There is no reason for the NCWA to change their policy. She should not be compelling anyone, through force of the state, to accommodate her hobby.

I'm saying that you saying it's not the NCWA's problem because she can go wrestle D1 competition is a ridiculous statement.  If club teams enter these D1 opens, they are likely very elite club teams.  She wants to face competition that she can actually compete with...with her team..against other teams in the same division. Why is that such a problem. "Oh, but she could always enter the US Open if she wanted to!" Why shouldn't she be allowed to compete for her club team?

 

There are plenty of reasons for the NCWA to change this policy.  That policy isn't the reason women's wrestling is growing.  The policy is preventing people who would like to wrestle from wrestling.  There are very few options for men to wrestle in college, and the options for women are even fewer.  She shouldn't be forced to go to obscure private schools in oregon, texas, or pay 3X more at a private school next door when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to just let her practice with men.  If she wants to, and the men in the club don't mind, why does some bureaucrat care?

 

Back to that question...What good reason is there to prevent her from practicing and competing against men? I have a lot of respect for you, Pinnum, because you are the first person in this thread to actually provide some type of reason other than the poster who said the head of the NCWA has "christian values."  However, your suggestion that it would hurt the growth of women's wrestling is is illogical.  So i'm just confused what the point of this rule is.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Do you still believe that the ACLU is acting like bullies in this situation?

No. I think that the NCWA is acting like a bully through their exclusionary tactics in this case. Exclusion is a well defined form of bullying. The ACLU is using a well known and encouraged anti-bullying technique that is currently being taught in schools across the country. Expose and bring awareness of the bullying that's taking place.

 

The NCWA in this case does not appear to be about promoting and growing wrestling. They're about promoting and growing wrestling "their way." They only want people to wrestle according to the mold they see fit. Not just get people to wrestle.

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No. I think that the NCWA is acting like a bully through their exclusionary tactics in this case. Exclusion is a well defined form of bullying. The ACLU is using a well known and encouraged anti-bullying technique that is currently being taught in schools across the country. Expose and bring awareness of the bullying that's taking place.

The NCWA in this case does not appear to be about promoting and growing wrestling. They're about promoting and growing wrestling "their way." They only want people to wrestle according to the mold they see fit. Not just get people to wrestle.

Earlier you said you didn't disagree that the ACLU were acting like bullies. Also, your initial position on Giunta/NCWA seemed more mild. He/They went from potentially being merely perceived as a bully "in a way" to being a bully. The ACLU went from bully to anti-bully. Also, in your view, the NCWA's position changed from reasonable to unreasonable. Was this always your position or did you make a 180 later in the thread? If the latter, what caused the change?

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Earlier you said you didn't disagree that the ACLU were acting like bullies. Also, your initial position on Giunta/NCWA seemed more mild. He/They went from potentially being merely perceived as a bully "in a way" to being a bully. The ACLU went from bully to anti-bully. Also, in your view, the NCWA's position changed from reasonable to unreasonable. Was this always your position or did you make a 180 later in the thread? If the latter, what caused the change?

I have not once flip flopped on this thread. While my tone earlier in the discussion was much softer, I was trying to be diplomatic to stay on the focus of what is being asked by the ACLU. From the get go I was on the side of allowing Marina Goocher wrestle. I said what the ACLU was asking for was reasonable. There was no change in my pov. I was NEVER on the side of the NCWA in this situation so there was no 180 turn.

 

My position on the NCWA has not changed at all either. I fully acknowledge the great things they have done for the sport. They absolutely have helped grow wrestling. But I also acknowledge that they shouldn't be absolute in their decision making and can be wrong.

 

The funny thing was when I initially read the title of this thread I actually rolled my eyes and said to myself.. oh god.. what the heck does the ACLU want instincutally siding with the NCWA. But within 5 seconds of reading the letter I was on the side of Marina Goocher.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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I have not once flip flopped on this thread. While my tone earlier in the discussion was much softer, I was trying to be diplomatic to stay on the focus of what is being asked by the ACLU. From the get go I was on the side of allowing Marina Goocher wrestle. I said what the ACLU was asking for was reasonable. There was no change in my pov. I was NEVER on the side of the NCWA in this situation so there was no 180 turn.

My position on the NCWA has not changed at all either. I fully acknowledge the great things they have done for the sport. They absolutely have helped grow wrestling. But I also acknowledge that they shouldn't be absolute in their decision making and can be wrong.

The funny thing was when I initially read the title of this thread I actually rolled my eyes and said to myself.. oh god.. what the heck does the ACLU want instincutally siding with the NCWA. But within 5 seconds of reading the letter I was on the side of Marina Goocher.

 

So would you still agree that the NCWA's stated position is reasonable?

 

Do you disagree that the ACLU is acting like bullies? You believe that the NCWA is, but earlier you said that you didn't disagree with the statement "the ACLU is acting like a bunch of bullies". So your position on the ACLU is still unclear.

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So would you still agree that the NCWA's stated position is reasonable?

 

Do you disagree that the ACLU is acting like bullies? You believe that the NCWA is, but earlier you said that you didn't disagree with the statement "the ACLU is acting like a bunch of bullies". So your position on the ACLU is still unclear.

 

Since you like talking in circles and tangling things up and saying absolutely nothing I will clarify things for you.

 

For the record. My position is this and always has been on the side of Marina Goocher.

I think the NCWA in this particular case is being unreasonable. I NEVER believed they were being reasonable in this case. I fully acknowledge that they've made tremendous contributions to collegiate wrestling and women's wrestling as a whole. I think they are acting as a bully through exclusion. They are establishing a system where they basically say "Sure, women can wrestle, but only who and where we say they can."

 

I think the ACLU in this case is using a well known anti-bullying tactic known as bringing awareness to that behavior. Have they been bullies in the past in other situations? I'm sure they have, however in this case they are not being the bully.

 

I hope that clarifies things for you, but I doubt it will. I now eagerly await for 7 paragraph response where you comb through every single word that was said and try to discredit my stance. The only thing that will do is lower my already weak opinion of you and your posts. As someone who believes escape points should not exist, "Jap" is not a racial slur, the majority of the general public know understand and recognize the difference between the NCWA and NCAA you have proven to me time and time again you have a dysfunctional brain. 

 

 

Bottom line. The NCWA should allow Marina Goocher to wrestle.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Not the NCWA's fault or their responsibility if other students:

 

A. Go to wrestle where varsity women's wrestling is offered

B. Opt not to start wrestling clubs so people at other schools can wrestle against them.

 

The whole "didn't have engineering" thing has been shot down, too. There's three schools with women's programs that offer scholarships and engineering.

 

Life is about tough choices. When you're 20-21 years old, it's time to learn that. She's the one who told coaches in the WCWA she didn't want to wrestle in college (I've had TWO coaches now tell me that directly). 

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Not the NCWA's fault or their responsibility if other students:

 

A. Go to wrestle where varsity women's wrestling is offered

B. Opt not to start wrestling clubs so people at other schools can wrestle against them.

 

The whole "didn't have engineering" thing has been shot down, too. There's three schools with women's programs that offer scholarships and engineering.

 

Life is about tough choices. When you're 20-21 years old, it's time to learn that. She's the one who told coaches in the WCWA she didn't want to wrestle in college (I've had TWO coaches now tell me that directly). 

 

And we can have differing opinions. I respect but disagree with your opinion.

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And same here, most of this discussion is civil, which is a positive for growth. 

 

Even though the NCWA exists, college kids shouldn't just assume they can wrestle at a place that doesn't have a wrestling team. Not all colleges are willing to create NCWA programs. I know a few that have outright denied anything competitive outside of intramural activities in rec sports. What would be the case if she'd chosen a school that didn't even allow a school to compete as a wrestling club? 

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And same here, most of this discussion is civil, which is a positive for growth. 

 

Even though the NCWA exists, college kids shouldn't just assume they can wrestle at a place that doesn't have a wrestling team. Not all colleges are willing to create NCWA programs. I know a few that have outright denied anything competitive outside of intramural activities in rec sports. What would be the case if she'd chosen a school that didn't even allow a school to compete as a wrestling club? 

 

Nothing you've said has been wrong, however we also live in a country that has procedures and processes in place to allow for the creation, modification, and amendment of laws. It is Marina Goocher's right as an American to pursue those changes if she see fit, which is exactly what she is doing.

 

As for your what if, she could petition to the school to do whatever she wanted, present her case, and allow them to make a consideration. If they still refuse, she could sue. That is the American way.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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