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#21 BigTimeFan

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:34 PM

Reading around I believe what happened with Sadulaev's move to 97kg was roughly:

 

- Russia is strong at 86kg (with Geduev moving there as well) while at 97kg its iffy with the retirement of Gadisov and Boltukaev's inconsistencies. So they asked Sad to move to 97kg despite the fact he is walking at 91-92kg. Sad basically gives them a medal at 97kg, some color that is. So Russia is stronger as a team with Sad at 97kg.

 

- However, the move is bad for Sad himself. He is 15-20 pounds undersized at this weight which is massive and increases his chances of losing and worse, injury. In reading his interviews, I did not detect enthusiasm from the beginning for moving to 97kg -- there was even an interview with him and Gadisov and Sajidov on this and Sad said that he isn't sure it makes sense for him. I think he wanted to do a match or a smaller tournament or two, but not permanently. But now that he accepted he has to stay put otherwise will look like he is running away from a challenge.

 

Nonetheless, I believe Sad will be a world champ at 97kg in 2018 -- I don't think 2017 is actually representative for him at 97kg for many reasons. I think Snyder , Baytsev, and others will have a very very tough time with him in 2018. I don't think he gets tired again in this way, is more used to 97kg, and taking Sad down from open space  is super hard. I'd say 2018 is actually the year that is representative for him at 97kg so I am looking forward to see how he wrestles.

 

That said, this is for sure not sustainable. Rolling around with the bigger boys and constantly giving up 15-20 pounds, even if he wins, is just not great for his longevity in the sport and overall health. 

The fact that Sadulaev lost one year after the Olympics has some merit. When Fadzaev moved up to 163 and wrestled Kenny Monday it was 1989 and Fadzaev lost a very close match. There are a lot of similarities with potentially one big difference. Fadzaev moved back down the next year. I don't know whether or not Fadzaev gave any interviews after the match or whether or not he claimed he was going to stay at 163 or not. 



#22 BigTimeFan

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:36 PM

Also for all the weight Sadulaev gave up it was a very very close match v Snyder. It was only toward the end when Sad was getting worn down did I think that the weight was, well, starting to weigh on him. Put it this way, if Sadulaev had come into the match an underdog I think a lot of us would be saying he had closed in and Snyder better watch out.



#23 sgallan

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:34 AM

The fact that Sadulaev lost one year after the Olympics has some merit. When Fadzaev moved up to 163 and wrestled Kenny Monday it was 1989 and Fadzaev lost a very close match. There are a lot of similarities with potentially one big difference. Fadzaev moved back down the next year. I don't know whether or not Fadzaev gave any interviews after the match or whether or not he claimed he was going to stay at 163 or not. 

 

A similar situation as Sudalaev, good action early and Fadzaev tired and got horsed at the end. Fadzaev has a super hard match with Varayev in the Soviet nationals as well.

 

To the subject at hand I think if Sudalaev stays light he will continue to have the same problem he did at this years Worlds.



#24 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 07:51 AM

The boxing/mma time off is partly injury and partly providing time to hype the fight. Keeping fans from being fatigued of seeing the same athletes too frequently.


True but the health risk issue is the biggest factor because the various state commissions will literally not let you fight again for months in many case, especially the competitive fights that almost always lead to some head trauma or limb injury. For example, Conor McGregor had to wait six or so months after several of his fights, most of which he won, including his last fight with Mayweather, even though he wanted to fight more during his peak earning years.

#25 wfan24

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 08:03 AM

I read some comments in Russian forums which claim Sadulaev's technique is average and that is why now he is having harder time at 97kg. I don't think that is true.

 

Here is a clip from a week ago of Sadulaev training with Shirvani Muradov (2008 Olympic champ): https://www.youtube....h?v=YYgTp_zT2DA

 

Sadulaev definitely does not look like a 97kg wrestler. 



#26 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 08:10 AM

Sadulaev’s technique is average??? That may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read about wrestling. (Not directed at you wfan.)
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#27 mspart

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 08:37 AM

He has a good gut wrench, but from a Saitiev point of view, where is his technique superior?  I think he is great, but I don't think his technique is huge like Saitiev who could kill from anywhere with various techniques that would baffle his opponent.  I see Sad getting a great takedown and turning the guy immediately.  He's tough as nails to score on but I would love to hear how his technique is superior.  I think he is just so athletic and that having average technique is good enough.  That's saying something really!  Not wanting a fight here, I would really like to know. 

 

mspart



#28 wfan24

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:10 AM

Interestingly that thread (need to find it again) was also talking how Gadisov has better technique than Sadulaev. Sad is no Saitiev technically, he doesn't have the upper body attacks but he seems sound in all positions. Him and Snyder are similar in some sense, hard to score on, good positioning, etc. Sad probably is a little more varied technically. 



#29 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:17 AM

Sadulaev’s technique is average because it’s not up to Saitiev’s level, really? Everyone’s technique sucks compared to Saitiev’s. That’s not even a point.
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#30 2td3nf

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:36 AM

mspart, on 01 Nov 2017 - 5:37 PM, said:

He has a good gut wrench, but from a Saitiev point of view, where is his technique superior?  I think he is great, but I don't think his technique is huge like Saitiev who could kill from anywhere with various techniques that would baffle his opponent.  I see Sad getting a great takedown and turning the guy immediately.  He's tough as nails to score on but I would love to hear how his technique is superior.  I think he is just so athletic and that having average technique is good enough.  That's saying something really!  Not wanting a fight here, I would really like to know. 

 

mspart

 

I'm certainly not the technique expert here, but look at all of Sadulaev's scrambles over the years. Quick as a cat and powerful with excellent balance to almost always come out on top and score......and then the flawless transition to the killer gut.

 

I don't know, is his spatial awareness, balance and pulling the right triggers in scrambles considered technique or athleticism, or both?

 

Plus the fact that he was doing this against world class competition while undefeated for several years.

 

I'll go out on the limb and say Sadulaev is wonderful technician. 



#31 GranbyTroll

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:19 AM

Sadulaev is pretty good technically.


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Iowa fans are still arrogant; it's just that their team isn't as good.


#32 hammerlockthree

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:58 AM

A similar situation as Sudalaev, good action early and Fadzaev tired and got horsed at the end. Fadzaev has a super hard match with Varayev in the Soviet nationals as well.

 

To the subject at hand I think if Sudalaev stays light he will continue to have the same problem he did at this years Worlds.

 

You think if he goes down he will have conditioning issues, and if he goes up he'll have horsepower issues? Thats how I took that



#33 sgallan

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:03 PM

Sadulaev’s technique is average??? That may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read about wrestling. (Not directed at you wfan.)

LOL, I would guess these views are sectarian. At least I hope so because yeah, beyond absurd.

#34 sgallan

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:10 PM

You think if he goes down he will have conditioning issues, and if he goes up he'll have horsepower issues? Thats how I took that

Both if upa weight. My bad for not being clearer. He never showed conditioning issues at 86. When you get gassed (defines my mediocre wrestling career) you get horsed no matter how technical you are, all other things being equal. Sudalaev gets gassed up at that weight. When we first had these match up conversations Sudalaev getting wore out wasn't at the front. After Russian nationals it was. Sudalaev's rather lackluster showing in the semi's wasn't so much of him not being capable of doing better as it was conserving energy. It was a good idea that he almost pulled off.

Edited by sgallan, 01 November 2017 - 12:11 PM.


#35 sgallan

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 12:23 PM

I'm certainly not the technique expert here, but look at all of Sadulaev's scrambles over the years. Quick as a cat and powerful with excellent balance to almost always come out on top and score......and then the flawless transition to the killer gut.

I don't know, is his spatial awareness, balance and pulling the right triggers in scrambles considered technique or athleticism, or both?

Plus the fact that he was doing this against world class competition while undefeated for several years.

I'll go out on the limb and say Sadulaev is wonderful technician.

As with most of the greats his technique is subtle. His ties are the recent technique grasping a pressure point and almost massaging it, Snyder does this well too, and then a change off. Cuffing is the best way I can describe it. Looks easy but few can do it well. He stays in control of position so it looks like a athletic scramble but it is a scramble that he has drilled because he keeps position, Snyder does this too but Sadulaev is better at this. Sadulaevs transition to the gut is off scale. Probably best ever. And he can get it from stasis as well. I consider tactics as technique and his is spot on. He was ready for Snyder and it was working save he gassed out. Elbow passing at the level he does it, and how easy he makes it look, all great technique looks like anybody can do it, is a subtle go to move that works a lot. I could go on and on.
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#36 mspart

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 11:03 AM

Thanks, I don't think a discussion of his technique has much happened here.  His ability to gut wrench is pretty good.  I did not watch the 2017 championships.  Was he able to pull gut wrenches off at 97 like he was able to at 86?

 

mspart



#37 Workers` Wrestling

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 11:39 PM

Can we really label Sadulaev`s technique as average? Well, congratulations to him for getting above average results with average technique.



#38 Housebuye

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 02:07 AM

Can we really label Sadulaev`s technique as average? Well, congratulations to him for getting above average results with average technique.

No. It is a ridiculous point.

You don’t avoid takedowns from the best in the world with average technique.

You don’t get takedowns into guts against the best in the world with average technique.

He is almost never out of position. His counters are some of the best in the world. His transitions are the best in the world.

#39 ConnorsDad

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 06:05 AM

Also for all the weight Sadulaev gave up it was a very very close match v Snyder. It was only toward the end when Sad was getting worn down did I think that the weight was, well, starting to weigh on him. Put it this way, if Sadulaev had come into the match an underdog I think a lot of us would be saying he had closed in and Snyder better watch out.


STUNNINGLY good post. Not that your post aren't good but this one is that good. My son and I are enormous Snyder fans. But he had everything going for him in the right direction and Sadulaev seemed to have a lot going against him (up a weight, very little mat time, marriage, etc) and it's still took a late takedown to win. It's like NFL teams who win a game on a last-second kick after playing like **** all game and all of a sudden people think they are a lot better than they really are. The making of one last second field goal doesn't change how you played. The last-second takedown, while it gives Snyder the victory, does not erase the fact that said July I've had moved up a weight and was Within 30 seconds or so of beating Schneider. Yes, I realize strength and conditioning matter and the matches are 6 minutes long. I get it. But there are a lot of areas where Sadulaev has an edge over Snyder. Fast forward 2 or 3 years and who do you think is going to improve more? I hope he stays up at 97 kg because I think it makes for a better sport but I think the results forthcoming are still well up in the air.

#40 cjc007

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 11:01 AM

STUNNINGLY good post. Not that your post aren't good but this one is that good. My son and I are enormous Snyder fans. But he had everything going for him in the right direction and Sadulaev seemed to have a lot going against him (up a weight, very little mat time, marriage, etc) and it's still took a late takedown to win. It's like NFL teams who win a game on a last-second kick after playing like **** all game and all of a sudden people think they are a lot better than they really are. The making of one last second field goal doesn't change how you played. The last-second takedown, while it gives Snyder the victory, does not erase the fact that said July I've had moved up a weight and was Within 30 seconds or so of beating Schneider. Yes, I realize strength and conditioning matter and the matches are 6 minutes long. I get it. But there are a lot of areas where Sadulaev has an edge over Snyder. Fast forward 2 or 3 years and who do you think is going to improve more? I hope he stays up at 97 kg because I think it makes for a better sport but I think the results forthcoming are still well up in the air.

Sadulev is small for 97 kg. He didn't look like the same wrestler we saw at 86kg.

Two great young talents. I love both of these tremendous competitors!

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