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The end of today's FRL and the implications for college wrestling

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I watched the video, and maybe I am missing something too, but what Tbar is saying actually makes sense to me. If an athlete is competing for an RTC post grad, what is wrong with paying them to do so? The athlete can then use the money to pay off loans, pay rent, food, beer, whatever. On the other hand, if an athlete is promised a certain amount of scholarship money that the school can't provide, and then the RTC reimburses them for that, then that would be a problem if they aren't competing for the club to earn their pay. If they are competing for the RTC and the money is given directly to the athlete, and not directly to pay off the loan, I don't see how they could get in trouble with that

 

I didn't watch so maybe I'm on the wrong track, but you can't promise a job based on athletic accomplishments. By this I mean the school/coaches/boosters. Technically the RTC is none of those but many boosters donate to the RTC. So, if someone promised a job in the RTC for after graduation while in school or during the recruiting process it could be viewed unfavorably.

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HR is just a website where random people can post. Flo is the leading coverage provider of college wrestling. This FRL was based off of what "HR" came up with?

You watch that show, They constantly refer to what anonymous people post on hawkeye report.

 

The next time Pyles interviews Cael maybe he will finally "have a plan", or maybe just some facts.

Edited by TBar1977

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I didn't watch so maybe I'm on the wrong track, but you can't promise a job based on athletic accomplishments. By this I mean the school/coaches/boosters. Technically the RTC is none of those but many boosters donate to the RTC. So, if someone promised a job in the RTC for after graduation while in school or during the recruiting process it could be viewed unfavorably.

Of course you can't make that kind of "promise", which is what Pyles alleges coaches are telling him is going on. Good luck to those coaches, Pyles or anyone else trying to prove such a thing.

 

A quid pro quo really only becomes a type of bribe when there is a clearly identifiable exchange of property based on an explicit promise. The NCAA would have to believe their was a corrupt exchange, namely a benefit given (cash) in exchange for something received (the wrestler's commitment). How would this be proven? Logan Stieber commits to Ohio State in 2010 or there about. This commitment is the "something received" in the example above. The Ohio RTC signs him to a contract 6 years later. This contract is the "benefit given" in the example above.

 

But the RTC says they are paying Stieber to wrestle post grad, not for some prior explicit promise 6 years earlier. This is the quid pro quo someone would be trying to prove.

 

Some recruit is gonna say a coach or booster said he could wrestle for the RTC when he graduates? If he is a stud he already knew that much. He also knew post grads got signed contracts because the RTC's make announcements of those signings.

Edited by TBar1977

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I watched the video, and maybe I am missing something too, but what Tbar is saying actually makes sense to me. If an athlete is competing for an RTC post grad, what is wrong with paying them to do so? The athlete can then use the money to pay off loans, pay rent, food, beer, whatever. On the other hand, if an athlete is promised a certain amount of scholarship money that the school can't provide, and then the RTC reimburses them for that, then that would be a problem if they aren't competing for the club to earn their pay. If they are competing for the RTC and the money is given directly to the athlete, and not directly to pay off the loan, I don't see how they could get in trouble with that

It's illegal for the same reason that you can't offer an NFL player a job after he's done with playing in order to circumvent the salary cap. Proving it is another thing but like the earlier poster said if it is going on it could mean the end of college wrestling. Always felt the RTC's made it even tougher for some of the smaller schools to compete.

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Damn FRL. They going to ruin the sport they love with all this compliance BS. Iowa will be the first to get nailed since they are the premier program in the sport right now.

 

That stupid Vodka just screwed his own school. Dummy

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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It's illegal for the same reason that you can't offer an NFL player a job after he's done with playing in order to circumvent the salary cap. Proving it is another thing but like the earlier poster said if it is going on it could mean the end of college wrestling. Always felt the RTC's made it even tougher for some of the smaller schools to compete.

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Here is the wrestling model that created the success the USA is having right now.

 

High School >>> College >>> RTC

 

Every top ranked wrestler coming out of high school could recite this simple model. They already know there is a place for them at the RTC when they finish with their NCAA eligibility, just as the top students at Wharton and Stanford Business know there is a spot for them at the top consulting and banking firms when they graduate. Nobody has to make any explicit promises to the very best in anything. 

 

I thought the sport of wrestling was better than this. We are going to let the weak eat the strong in this sport too? Maybe I will get rid of my Flo subscription when it comes up and just go back to BTN too. Why pay them more? They don't want to allow wrestlers to earn more, so why should they?

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Nobody wants wrestlers to earn less. The issue being discussed is whether RTCs are vehicles to backdoor what effectively is scholarship money. That’s a completely separate and major issue. Nobody who wants the sport to continue to be a D1 sport can ignore it because if true (HUGE IF), it would be the biggest scandal in the sport’s history and likely lead to such severe sanctions that the sport could start to die on the vine from the resultant collateral damage.

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Nobody wants wrestlers to earn less. The issue being discussed is whether RTCs are vehicles to backdoor what effectively is scholarship money. That’s a completely separate and major issue. Nobody who wants the sport to continue to be a D1 sport can ignore it because if true (HUGE IF), it would be the biggest scandal in the sport’s history and likely lead to such severe sanctions that the sport could start to die on the vine from the resultant collateral damage.

 

Has a Non Revenue sport ever gotten in trouble for something like this?

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Has a Non Revenue sport ever gotten in trouble for something like this?

 

Yes. 

 

MacMurry College's Tennis program comes to mind.  They were given the death penalty in 2004 and banned from having a tennis team for two years, to be followed by two years of a post season ban.  Their coach was also given a 'show clause' from the NCAA which prevented him from coaching at any college in the NCAA for four years (though the show clause was over turned on appeal). 

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Yes. 

 

MacMurry College's Tennis program comes to mind.  They were given the death penalty in 2004 and banned from having a tennis team for two years, to be followed by two years of a post season ban.  Their coach was also given a 'show clause' from the NCAA which prevented him from coaching at any college in the NCAA for four years (though the show clause was over turned on appeal). 

 

What was the violation?

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Of course you can't make that kind of "promise", which is what Pyles alleges coaches are telling him is going on. Good luck to those coaches, Pyles or anyone else trying to prove such a thing.

 

A quid pro quo really only becomes a type of bribe when there is a clearly identifiable exchange of property based on an explicit promise. 

If anything going on the difficult issue is knowing where to look because the NCAA can’t be looking everywhere.  But to the is it identifiable:

 

Let’s say top recruit A gets a full (use 100% to keep the math simple) ride offer from the coach at Univ X and accepts.  A few/several months late X gets back to A to indicate we need to reduce the offer to 50% (could be they find they can go after top recruit B, or they’ve got a guy who wants to redshirt/stay around another year etc.) but we will make up the 50% once on campus and in the program from over here.  Now all may be fine as long as A goes to X, but what if A decides nay I don’t trust them I’m now going to Univ Q and of course there might just be some discussion at some point in time regarding why A went to Q over X.

 

Well if knowing where to look (enough As to connect some dots) there’d be records of initial offer %, changes to the % and tax etc records coming from the here and to A.

Now add the RTCs to the equations and there’s more here to add to the shell game and perhaps raise it to an even higher level and perhaps there’s a new Univ Y that is now playing the game at said higher level.  But let’s say you are X, you don’t really want to talk about it (what Y may be doing), so do you just join the new shell game?

 

There can be an explicit promise and the documentation to identify the exchange of such property.  Thing with the NCAA is they don’t necessarily have to have all the dots hard connected, just enough info to know there’s a lot of smoke. 

 

Of course this is all just a hypothetical example.  ;)

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What would be most interesting, to me, is if there are any athletes that are moving off scholarship (or having them reduced) and remaining with the program.

 

It would be very hard to defend moving athletes off scholarship at the end of their career, especially if those athletes are working camps and joining the RTC.

 

While it is possible high school recruits are being promised loan repayment and it may be going on, it would be harder to prove and I tend to think less parents would be on board with it. You're taking on five years of debt based on a promise that you don't know will come through.

 

The only thing that would make me suspicious of promisses of loan repayment to high school kids would be if there are any recruits joining the RTC after they graduate who had careers that didn't pan out. That would be a sign that promises being kept despite an athlete not warrenting RTC funding.

 

Now, if you have guys that are giving up their scholarship for their senior year who have aspirations of wrestling freestyle, that would be very alarming. I could see that happening where a program wants to bring in young recruits to redshirt and train with the Senior and need the scholarship to attract the recruit and the program promises their star funding through the RTC and the camps they broker to make up for the difference.

 

Of course, this would be a major violation and be a major scandal.

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What would be most interesting, to me, is if there are any athletes that are moving off scholarship (or having them reduced) and remaining with the program.

 

It would be very hard to defend moving athletes off scholarship at the end of their career, especially if those athletes are working camps and joining the RTC.

 

While it is possible high school recruits are being promised loan repayment and it may be going on, it would be harder to prove and I tend to think less parents would be on board with it. You're taking on five years of debt based on a promise that you don't know will come through.

 

The only thing that would make me suspicious of promisses of loan repayment to high school kids would be if there are any recruits joining the RTC after they graduate who had careers that didn't pan out. That would be a sign that promises being kept despite an athlete not warrenting RTC funding.

 

Now, if you have guys that are giving up their scholarship for their senior year who have aspirations of wrestling freestyle, that would be very alarming. I could see that happening where a program wants to bring in young recruits to redshirt and train with the Senior and need the scholarship to attract the recruit and the program promises their star funding through the RTC and the camps they broker to make up for the difference.

 

Of course, this would be a major violation and be a major scandal.

This is exactly what to look at.  The other is to look at the number of hours they are billing for the wrestling camp and to whom.  Are some athletes who are getting less scholarship money getting more hours billed at wrestling camps despite not actually working them (a la no show carpenter job from the Sopranos)?  

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I didn't watch so maybe I'm on the wrong track, but you can't promise a job based on athletic accomplishments. By this I mean the school/coaches/boosters. Technically the RTC is none of those but many boosters donate to the RTC. So, if someone promised a job in the RTC for after graduation while in school or during the recruiting process it could be viewed unfavorably.

Prefacing this with stating I have not watched FRL, either, but it's probably not a "job" that is promised, it may be a sponsorship/stipend from the RTC.

 

An undergrad has to qualify for a slot at the RTC (for an athlete from CA it was/is: HS State placer, cadet/Jr AA, state Free or Greco top 4 placing - at least that was the criteria a few years back).

 

Most, if not all, of these wrestlers are eligible under those scenarios. So technically there is likely no promise of sponsorship, but that they have the ability to continue competing and be paid/supplemented for it after finishing their studies.

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