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The end of today's FRL and the implications for college wrestling

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The difference between what the two clubs paid out is about 75K per year. You can't pay off college loans with that, and it can be entirely explained by actually having higher expenses.

 

My protest is commensurate with the amount of conspiracy theory energy coming the other way.

Please publish your audit. I'm interested in where 500k goes. I'm sure others are as well. You'll agree with the obvious that other clubs get far more for far less?

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Please publish your audit. I'm interested in where 500k goes. I'm sure others are as well. You'll agree with the obvious that other clubs get far more for far less?

 

You publish your own audit. I don't need to publish anything because I have no problems with what any of these clubs are doing. The only thing I want to do is give them all a big attaboy for getting USA Wrestling to the top!

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You publish your own audit. I don't need to publish anything because I have no problems with what any of these clubs are doing. The only thing I want to do is give them all a big attaboy for getting USA Wrestling to the top!

It's the only way for our top guys to compete post college. It's even better if they achieve the MS from school, but it is what it is.

 

How can we compete without compensating the wrestlers?

 

The NCAA doesn't sponsor freestyle, so I don't know if they would even have jurisdiction in the payments by the RTC's.

 

They may be bad for college wrestling parity, but they are essential for our world class competitors.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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It's the only way for our top guys to compete post college. It's even better if they achieve the MS from school, but it is what it is.

 

How can we compete without compensating the wrestlers?

 

The NCAA doesn't sponsor freestyle, so I don't know if they would even have jurisdiction in the payments by the RTC's.

 

They may be bad for college wrestling parity, but they are essential for our world class competitors.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

 

Has nothing to do with freestyle or folkstyle, it has to do with the fact that the NCAA does not get to regulate outside non profits like the RTC's any more than they could regulate the Salvation Army or Red Cross. 

 

The NCAA could instruct colleges like Iowa, Ohio State or Minnesota to not allow their wrestlers to compete for RTC's post college but they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in that regard either. This whole pursuit from these people is silly. And I am being kind calling it silly. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Disclaimer:  This is going to be a long post and gets very down in the weeds on a lot of subjects.  So I apologize ahead of time :)

 

Others have claimed to be owed an explanation. And you wanted to know in another post who was getting paid, so at a minimum you imply you are owed an explanation. But the thing is, Flo obtained what was publicly owed which is their tax filings. These docs don't disclose which wrestlers receive grants, and how much those grants are for. So you or anyone else would have to convince a court to compel an RTC to disclose that information. I can't see why a court would deem this necessary, especially to satisfy the curiosity of sports fans. 

 

The RTC's don't owe me, you or anyone else anything other than the 990 they are required to file to maintain their not-for-profit status.  I'm not claiming they owe me anything, I'm merely stating that there is an interesting discussion to be had if we could analyze who is on the payroll at the RTC's and are their results/potential commensurate to that pay.

 

PSU has a great class. So what. They have a great coach too. Maybe one goes with the other. 

 

I'm going to chalk this up as a win, as you have no real rebuttal to my point.  Having such a top-heavy team like PSU, or the B1G in general is NOT good for wrestling.  The B1G hasn't done any favors for wrestling for the past 10 years besides requiring the sport to be in-conference.  Now, I love me some big ten wrestling don't get me wrong, but if you think having 80% of all AA's (this number is not fact-checked) coming one conference is a GOOD thing, you're crazy.

 

We'll save this discussion for another thread, because I think it truly is a good one if we can keep the emotion out of it.

 

Here's the thing, Witherman. Who created the RTC's? Did Penn State or Cael Sanderson create the RTC's? No, they were the idea of the entire collective wrestling community. Why were they created? To advance wrestling in the USA thru grants to wrestlers who show promise. That is subjective, both in the amount they grant to each wrestler, and how they choose the wrestlers.

 

One thing that is not very subjective is who chooses the wrestlers. That is left up to the experts at each RTC. Cael Sanderson doesn't tell Tom Brands who to put in the RTC at Iowa City, and Brands doesn't tell Cael Sanderson who to put in the RTC at NLWC. That is just the way the system works, and it has worked wonderfully. Look at the results.

 

The fact that some RTC's are better funded than others is due to the fact that some create more excitement than others, I suppose. But who is to tell a donor to not give, because some guy somewhere else will get upset about his locally made gift? And who is to direct the experts at one RTC to not make the grants? Non profits are not allowed to just sit on money. They are compelled to pay it out. Not 100% by law, mind you, but they can't just keep holding onto money without doing the work of the non profit, which in this case is developing wrestlers. 

 

You say you are not curious due to anything going on at Iowa, but you'd be a massive exception to the way things work over at Hawkeye Report if this is 100% true. That whole board is dedicated full time to the "Cael Cheats" story. 

 

Please don't interpret my participation in this thread as being AGAINST the RTC system.  I think the RTC system has done wonders for the senior level freestyle landscape, and our recent results have proved that as well.

 

What I do feel is that the RTC system has introduced an opportunity for a black market or loopholes, and if history has shown us anything in sports or any other subject you choose, human beings will ALWAYS exploit the loopholes.  Doesn't matter if its wrestling, tax evasion, politics.  Its in our DNA to exploit every opportunity we can to gain the advantage.

 

Lastly, I joined this forum 6 years ago and have participated at varying levels during that timeframe.  I even remember when you used to post about things OTHER than Penn State.  I have always been upfront about my allegiance to the Iowa program, but at the same time have always tried to look at the sport itself in an unbiased and objective manner.  By comparison, I joined the hawkreport forum in June of 2017 and hvae a total of 20 posts on that site. 

 

What I'm trying to say here is, I do not buy into the conspiracy theories thrown around over there.  Hell, they still think we have a shot at Teasedale.  The black and gold glasses that those guys wear are ridiculous sometimes.  Please try to view my posts and responses to this subject in a more objective manner, because I can tell you think "hawkeye fan, hates penn state".

 

But how does that get them access to RTC record books? And what would they do even if they could get to that information? They'd find out that the RTC's are doing exactly what they stated they would do, develop wrestlers and promote wrestling. OK, then what? 

 
This is exactly the point, there is no way to prove what is being claimed to be taking place.  Even if you were able to obtain the records, you would be reaching at best to make a claim that X wrestling doesn't deserve Y pay.
 

Flo actually posted the 990's for all the clubs that mattered. They posted the actual forms for 2013, 2014 and 2015. Forget what the clubs received in donations for a minute. Look at what their expenses were. You want to look there because that is the money being paid out to sponsor camps, tournaments, and wrestlers as a whole.

 

In those 3 years in total Hawkeye WC had expenses of about $1,035,000. NLWC had expenses of about $1,477,000. So the difference in expenses isn't the same as the difference in their bank accounts, which we all know NLWC has the largest "endowment" among all the clubs simply because  one donor gave a lot of money. 

 

Now, the difference in expenses is about $440,000 over 3 years. But NLWC has a full time employed Secretary who make about $70,000 per year, so reduce that difference by 3 x $70,000 = $210,000. Now the net difference, the expenses for camps, tournaments and the like is only $230,000 over 3 years, or little more than $75,000 per year. That could be explained by having a few more camps, paying Yonemitsu and Gomez a little more. Anything really.

 

It ain't enough money to buy NCAA Championships and it surely isn't enough to pay off all those college loans so many Hawkeye fans think they are paying off. Surely you are smart enough to realize this much. 

 

This is great information, and I appreciate you doing the research on it because I didn't have the time but was something I was curious of.  As a sidebar, if you can find me a secretary job in wrestling that makes $70k sign me up, but i'll leave that one alone.

 

Now, on to the point I want to make about these numbers.  We really haven't even reached the point where the claims that have been made will start hitting the RTC's books yet.  What will be interesting to see is as the years go on (which unfortunately, I feel this conspiracy will drag on for a LONG time) will the $75,000 gap (only using PSU as an example as those are the numbers you provided) INCREASE as more and more athletes start entering the RTC's that are allegedly promised the repayments.

 

Also, I think you'd be surprised how far that $75,000 could stretch.  We all talk about how creative these college coaches can get with schollies, who's to say they can't get creative in the RTC's as well?  Even if a kid was on 100% athletic scholarship at tOSU and you could convince him to take 50% with the promise of a repayment with the RTC, that's a difference of roughly $22,000.  You could cover three athletes for $75,000 which translates to an additional 1.5 scholarships to give out.

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The RTC's don't owe me, you or anyone else anything other than the 990 they are required to file to maintain their not-for-profit status. 

 

Glad we agree.

 

I'm not claiming they owe me anything, I'm merely stating that there is an interesting discussion to be had if we could analyze who is on the payroll at the RTC's and are their results/potential commensurate to that pay.

 

But you can't get at their "payroll", if that is even the right word to describe their "expenses". And I like interesting conversations, we are having one here right now. What I don't like are implied accusations based on non information. Not that have done that here in this post. 

 

 

Having such a top-heavy team like PSU, or the B1G in general is NOT good for wrestling. 

 

That never bothered anyone when it was Iowa. 

 

 

Please don't interpret my participation in this thread as being AGAINST the RTC system.  I think the RTC system has done wonders for the senior level freestyle landscape, and our recent results have proved that as well.

 

Good, then we agree again. 

 

 

What I do feel is that the RTC system has introduced an opportunity for a black market or loopholes, and if history has shown us anything in sports or any other subject you choose, human beings will ALWAYS exploit the loopholes.  Doesn't matter if its wrestling, tax evasion, politics.  Its in our DNA to exploit every opportunity we can to gain the advantage.

 

So there are good people and bad people in this world. Assuming anyone in wresting is bad without having proof of such sounds like "guilty until proven innocent" to me. 

 

 

What I'm trying to say here is, I do not buy into the conspiracy theories thrown around over there.  Hell, they still think we have a shot at Teasedale.  The black and gold glasses that those guys wear are ridiculous sometimes.  Please try to view my posts and responses to this subject in a more objective manner, because I can tell you think "hawkeye fan, hates penn state".

 

Sounds good. 

 

 

This is exactly the point, there is no way to prove what is being claimed to be taking place.  Even if you were able to obtain the records, you would be reaching at best to make a claim that X wrestling doesn't deserve Y pay.

 

Nail, meet hammer. We all know wrestlers get paid. If you had their books you'd see wrestlers getting paid to run camps and other wrestling events, and grants to help them aspire in their pursuit of Olympic type goals. How does this ever get quantified??? Most of them can make more money by moving on than they can by continuing to wrestle. Proving anything the sort of what has perpetually been claimed would be impossible. 

 

 

This is great information, and I appreciate you doing the research on it because I didn't have the time but was something I was curious of.  As a sidebar, if you can find me a secretary job in wrestling that makes $70k sign me up, but i'll leave that one alone.

 

Now, on to the point I want to make about these numbers.  We really haven't even reached the point where the claims that have been made will start hitting the RTC's books yet.  What will be interesting to see is as the years go on (which unfortunately, I feel this conspiracy will drag on for a LONG time) will the $75,000 gap (only using PSU as an example as those are the numbers you provided) INCREASE as more and more athletes start entering the RTC's that are allegedly promised the repayments.

 

Also, I think you'd be surprised how far that $75,000 could stretch.  We all talk about how creative these college coaches can get with schollies, who's to say they can't get creative in the RTC's as well?  Even if a kid was on 100% athletic scholarship at tOSU and you could convince him to take 50% with the promise of a repayment with the RTC, that's a difference of roughly $22,000.  You could cover three athletes for $75,000 which translates to an additional 1.5 scholarships to give out.

 

Witherman, I think you are going too far here. Even with the word allegedly in your text it still perpetuates this theme that loans are being repaid, which there isn't a scintilla of evidence this is so. I'm done for now. I think I have shown pretty clearly this whole line of accusations is made up from whole cloth on HR, and perpetuated to one degree or another - some more, some less - even by the FRL guys and others here on themat.com. 

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