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The end of today's FRL and the implications for college wrestling


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#41 pjm46

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:17 AM

Nobody wants wrestlers to earn less. The issue being discussed is whether RTCs are vehicles to backdoor what effectively is scholarship money. That’s a completely separate and major issue. Nobody who wants the sport to continue to be a D1 sport can ignore it because if true (HUGE IF), it would be the biggest scandal in the sport’s history and likely lead to such severe sanctions that the sport could start to die on the vine from the resultant collateral damage.

 

Has a Non Revenue sport ever gotten in trouble for something like this?



#42 Pinnum

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:26 AM

Has a Non Revenue sport ever gotten in trouble for something like this?

 

Yes. 

 

MacMurry College's Tennis program comes to mind.  They were given the death penalty in 2004 and banned from having a tennis team for two years, to be followed by two years of a post season ban.  Their coach was also given a 'show clause' from the NCAA which prevented him from coaching at any college in the NCAA for four years (though the show clause was over turned on appeal). 


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#43 quanon

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:38 AM

Yes. 

 

MacMurry College's Tennis program comes to mind.  They were given the death penalty in 2004 and banned from having a tennis team for two years, to be followed by two years of a post season ban.  Their coach was also given a 'show clause' from the NCAA which prevented him from coaching at any college in the NCAA for four years (though the show clause was over turned on appeal). 

 

What was the violation?



#44 Pinnum

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:40 AM

What was the violation?

 

The coach was getting outside support to help pay for the education of athletes.


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#45 superbowlhomeboy

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 03:03 AM

Coach used an outside scholarship fund to circumvent scholarship limitations.

 

https://www.insidehi...005/05/05/ncaa 



#46 ionel

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 03:43 AM

Of course you can't make that kind of "promise", which is what Pyles alleges coaches are telling him is going on. Good luck to those coaches, Pyles or anyone else trying to prove such a thing.

A quid pro quo really only becomes a type of bribe when there is a clearly identifiable exchange of property based on an explicit promise. 

If anything going on the difficult issue is knowing where to look because the NCAA can’t be looking everywhere.  But to the is it identifiable:

 

Let’s say top recruit A gets a full (use 100% to keep the math simple) ride offer from the coach at Univ X and accepts.  A few/several months late X gets back to A to indicate we need to reduce the offer to 50% (could be they find they can go after top recruit B, or they’ve got a guy who wants to redshirt/stay around another year etc.) but we will make up the 50% once on campus and in the program from over here.  Now all may be fine as long as A goes to X, but what if A decides nay I don’t trust them I’m now going to Univ Q and of course there might just be some discussion at some point in time regarding why A went to Q over X.

 

Well if knowing where to look (enough As to connect some dots) there’d be records of initial offer %, changes to the % and tax etc records coming from the here and to A.

Now add the RTCs to the equations and there’s more here to add to the shell game and perhaps raise it to an even higher level and perhaps there’s a new Univ Y that is now playing the game at said higher level.  But let’s say you are X, you don’t really want to talk about it (what Y may be doing), so do you just join the new shell game?

 

There can be an explicit promise and the documentation to identify the exchange of such property.  Thing with the NCAA is they don’t necessarily have to have all the dots hard connected, just enough info to know there’s a lot of smoke. 

 

Of course this is all just a hypothetical example.  ;)



#47 Pinnum

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:00 AM

What would be most interesting, to me, is if there are any athletes that are moving off scholarship (or having them reduced) and remaining with the program.

It would be very hard to defend moving athletes off scholarship at the end of their career, especially if those athletes are working camps and joining the RTC.

While it is possible high school recruits are being promised loan repayment and it may be going on, it would be harder to prove and I tend to think less parents would be on board with it. You're taking on five years of debt based on a promise that you don't know will come through.

The only thing that would make me suspicious of promisses of loan repayment to high school kids would be if there are any recruits joining the RTC after they graduate who had careers that didn't pan out. That would be a sign that promises being kept despite an athlete not warrenting RTC funding.

Now, if you have guys that are giving up their scholarship for their senior year who have aspirations of wrestling freestyle, that would be very alarming. I could see that happening where a program wants to bring in young recruits to redshirt and train with the Senior and need the scholarship to attract the recruit and the program promises their star funding through the RTC and the camps they broker to make up for the difference.

Of course, this would be a major violation and be a major scandal.
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#48 Billyhoyle

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:05 AM

What would be most interesting, to me, is if there are any athletes that are moving off scholarship (or having them reduced) and remaining with the program.

It would be very hard to defend moving athletes off scholarship at the end of their career, especially if those athletes are working camps and joining the RTC.

While it is possible high school recruits are being promised loan repayment and it may be going on, it would be harder to prove and I tend to think less parents would be on board with it. You're taking on five years of debt based on a promise that you don't know will come through.

The only thing that would make me suspicious of promisses of loan repayment to high school kids would be if there are any recruits joining the RTC after they graduate who had careers that didn't pan out. That would be a sign that promises being kept despite an athlete not warrenting RTC funding.

Now, if you have guys that are giving up their scholarship for their senior year who have aspirations of wrestling freestyle, that would be very alarming. I could see that happening where a program wants to bring in young recruits to redshirt and train with the Senior and need the scholarship to attract the recruit and the program promises their star funding through the RTC and the camps they broker to make up for the difference.

Of course, this would be a major violation and be a major scandal.

This is exactly what to look at.  The other is to look at the number of hours they are billing for the wrestling camp and to whom.  Are some athletes who are getting less scholarship money getting more hours billed at wrestling camps despite not actually working them (a la no show carpenter job from the Sopranos)?  



#49 Old_Marine_Wrestler

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:23 AM

I didn't watch so maybe I'm on the wrong track, but you can't promise a job based on athletic accomplishments. By this I mean the school/coaches/boosters. Technically the RTC is none of those but many boosters donate to the RTC. So, if someone promised a job in the RTC for after graduation while in school or during the recruiting process it could be viewed unfavorably.

Prefacing this with stating I have not watched FRL, either, but it's probably not a "job" that is promised, it may be a sponsorship/stipend from the RTC.

 

An undergrad has to qualify for a slot at the RTC (for an athlete from CA it was/is: HS State placer, cadet/Jr AA, state Free or Greco top 4 placing - at least that was the criteria a few years back).

 

Most, if not all, of these wrestlers are eligible under those scenarios. So technically there is likely no promise of sponsorship, but that they have the ability to continue competing and be paid/supplemented for it after finishing their studies.


I like NIke but wait a minute, the sport supports so put some money in it


#50 tommytechnique

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 05:18 AM

Nebraska wrestling got in some trouble a few years ago with camp money. 

 

 

https://nebraska.riv...stling-findings

 

http://www.dailynebr...f81e06748b.html



#51 tigerfan9311

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:32 AM

Believe it or not, there wouldn't necessarily be anything nefarious about a senior taking a reduced scholarship.  I believe Ben Askren did exactly that, and that was before Mizzou had a RTC, iirc.  At that point, Ben had qualified for in-state, so his cost was reduced, and he was selflessly trying to free up money for the good of the program.  I'm sure he's not the only senior who's been asked to take a reduction for the good of the team.  If those seniors then turn around and receive a stipend from the RTC (standard practice), that wouldn't add up to corruption.  Thus, as others have said, good luck proving this.



#52 Perry

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 12:17 PM

Mizzou has an rtc? Honestly didn't know that. I'm not surprised to hear a guy like askren took a reduced scholarship for the good of the team, top tier guys seem willing to do that to help attract other top tier talent to the program.

#53 hammerlockthree

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 12:18 PM

Always wondered why cox wore the Monday Wednesday Friday singlet.



#54 Tofurky

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:22 AM

This thread makes me wonder about the time frame when we will begin seeing guys who don’t want to continue Wrestling American folk and want to focus on the international style solely, while attending school. I wonder if the PSUs, Iowas, OSUs (both) and ASUs have discussed scholarships for those kids whose interest is at those RTCs.


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#55 grapplefan

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:18 AM

For several years "We need to find a way to develop our wrestlers into championship Sr level freestyle wrestlers" and "We need to find opportunities for wrestlers beyond college"

 

The RTC's are created. The USA ascends to the very top of the Sr. level wrestling world! 

 

 

Now today "Look at those guys paying post grad wrestlers at their RTC's. Oh, the horrors!!!" 

 

 

LOL at what Hawkeye Report Hysteria can create. Btw, I have the impression from listening to FRL from the beginning that "I heard" is often synonymous with "It was on Hawkeye Report's Message board"

Duck & cover, eh Tbar?

 

This wasn't created by a Hawkeye Report conspiracy. They don't care that much. They might even agree with you. This was created by the money thrown at athletes to circumvent the limitations of NCAA rules. That YOUR team gets mentioned is mostly because they're the top dog, but several teams will probably get caught up in this if the NCAA cares to take notice.



#56 TBar1977

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 12:38 PM

Duck & cover, eh Tbar?

 

This wasn't created by a Hawkeye Report conspiracy. They don't care that much. They might even agree with you. This was created by the money thrown at athletes to circumvent the limitations of NCAA rules. That YOUR team gets mentioned is mostly because they're the top dog, but several teams will probably get caught up in this if the NCAA cares to take notice.

 

 

Nothing will come of this. People underestimate the true meaning of words like "explicit" and "promise", but they matter. Flo is peddling rumor and innuendo from coaches who don't like losing. If Flo had anything real they'd report it. 


I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#57 hammerlockthree

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:18 PM

It's almost like your a bozo who discounts any inconvenient information that comes his way.....



#58 TBar1977

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:24 PM

It's almost like your a bozo who discounts any inconvenient information that comes his way.....

 

 

You ARE a BOZO. Full time. 


I have set aside funds to have six Green Bay Packers be my pall bearers, that way they can let me down one final time. 


#59 hammerlockthree

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:29 PM

So I'm wrong? You take a lot of time to thoughtfully consider criticisms of Penn State? 



#60 headshuck

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:35 PM

I hope arrogance doesn’t attract attention. Even an investigation that turns up nothing is bad.




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