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The end of today's FRL and the implications for college wrestling

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Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. A bunch of wrestling fans have cooked up some theory where they acknowledge they don't r eally know anything and they talk about it like its real and it will amount to something. They do this for years now ... and I'm the paranoid one?

 

LMFAO.

 

You guys are going to grow old worrying about something that you have no idea is even happening, and the odds of it going on are slim to none.

I didn’t “cook” it up and I’m surely not going to grow old worrying about it.

 

Again - it was a discussion topic and I was discussing.

 

Yes - you are paranoid and apparently obsessive b/c you simply cannot let a post go by without arguing unless it says “penn State is the greatest, will always be the greatest, and never has done anything wrong, nor will they ever do anything wrong in the future”.

 

And I put the odds at much higher than slim to none.

 

 

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I didn’t “cook” it up and I’m surely not going to grow old worrying about it.

 

Again - it was a discussion topic and I was discussing.

 

Yes - you are paranoid and apparently obsessive b/c you simply cannot let a post go by without arguing unless it says “penn State is the greatest, will always be the greatest, and never has done anything wrong, nor will they ever do anything wrong in the future”.

 

And I put the odds at much higher than slim to none.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

Jason, I hardly need people to proclaim PSU is the greatest, but on the other hand if they are going to continually promote (or be a part of such ongoing promotion) the idea that PSU is cheating without real basis to the accusation then I am going to respond to that sort of thing. This board isn't going to become a Hawkeye Report Mini Me without some push back. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Don't listen to him. Bigfoot exists, but not in Happy Valley.

Not so fast young grasshopper, who do you think Nevills is training with?  At the same time, Karl also recruited a northern California sasquatch (why do you think there's been no recent sightings) to train with Nevills.  He stays in the wooded happy valley and rumor has it that they feed him Jack Links jerky paid for out of RTC funds, Snyder has no chance this year.  

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Not so fast young grasshopper, who do you think Nevills is training with? At the same time, Karl also recruited a northern California sasquatch (why do you think there's been no recent sightings) to train with Nevills. He stays in the wooded happy valley and rumor has it that they feed him Jack Links jerky paid for out of RTC funds, Snyder has no chance this year.

Sasquatch sucks in freestyle!

 

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RTCs can pay whatever they want and recruits know that if they go to a given school they'll have an "in" to be part of the RTC once they graduate if they have both enough interest and success.  They're kind of a grey area since they get around coaching limits and provide a big recruiting boost but my concerns on that are more that they further separate the haves from the have nots than anything else.  I think that long term they might be a net negative for how many schools we have that have D1 teams in a decade or two.  But if somebody is willing to pay a bunch of money to fund an RTC then all power too them - and RTCs can recruit guys however they want to, including telling them they'll pay off their loans, buy them a house, or whatever, at that point they are no longer college student athletes and NCAA rules no longer apply.

 

That's not the accusation at hand here though.  The accusation is that some schools are getting around scholarship limits via promises from boosters to pay off their athletes loans once they graduate.  That doesn't have anything to do with RTCs beyond it being the same set of donors who would be involved in both. Trying to divert the conversation to the merits of RTCs is just avoiding the actual topic.

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That's not the accusation at hand here though.  The accusation is that some schools are getting around scholarship limits via promises from boosters to pay off their athletes loans once they graduate.  That doesn't have anything to do with RTCs beyond it being the same set of donors who would be involved in both. Trying to divert the conversation to the merits of RTCs is just avoiding the actual topic.

 

I think the relation to RTC's is that they are being used as the means to facilitate the loan payoff, etc. as they are not policed.

 

Donors giving funds directly to kids would get sniffed out in a heartbeat.  But RTC's?  That's a bit harder.

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I think the relation to RTC's is that they are being used as the means to facilitate the loan payoff, etc. as they are not policed.

 

Donors giving funds directly to kids would get sniffed out in a heartbeat.  But RTC's?  That's a bit harder.

 

Before graduation it is just as easy/hard to sniff it out wherever it comes from.  RTCs aren't cutting paychecks to current students.  After graduation nobody would ever know unless the booster or former athlete admitted to it.

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Before graduation it is just as easy/hard to sniff it out wherever it comes from. RTCs aren't cutting paychecks to current students. After graduation nobody would ever know unless the booster or former athlete admitted to it.

I don't understand your point. It is trivial to see who is getting paid by the RTC - They file taxes. Ditto for athletes. Or are you saying it can't be proven that it scholarship deferment? Edited by Plasmodium

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is this not what we're talking about? 

 

I guess I misunderstood - I thought you were talking about current athletes vs. alumni,

 

RTCs aren't "policed" by the NCAA but neither is a booster just cutting a check to an alum.  So it being done via an RTC's bank account or a booster's bank account doesn't change anything about the accusation.  And to be honest I'd be extremely surprised if it was being done via an RTC's bank account, since even if their books aren't open they still have books, tax returns, etc.  Stuff that creates a big paper trail.  A booster doing it directly doesn't create anywhere near that amount of traceability.  I was just saying that getting hung up on the RTC part is missing the point.  It is booster money either way, whether there is an extra step involved or not.  And if an athlete is actually part of the RTC then it is a little grey but not something the NCAA does or should care about, since RTCs can pay athletes whatever they want to pay them.  What the NCAA would care about is if they are cutting checks to athletes who aren't legitimately part of the RTC in order to get around scholarship limitations.

 

If somebody like Kyle Snyder chooses to be a walk on or take a minuscule amount of money because he is secure in the knowledge that he'll be taken care of later by the RTC that isn't something to care about.  If *insert random guy from a lineup who has no Freestyle pedigree or aspiration* is walking on or taking a minuscule amount of money because he is secure in the knowledge that he'll be taken care of later that is something to care about. Because in the first case the money he'll eventually get is actually for being part of the RTC and doing RTC things.  In the second case the money would be for wrestling for X school and doing college wrestling things.

Edited by ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying

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I guess I misunderstood - I thought you were talking about current athletes vs. alumni,

 

RTCs aren't "policed" by the NCAA but neither is a booster just cutting a check to an alum. So it being done via an RTC's bank account or a booster's bank account doesn't change anything about the accusation. And to be honest I'd be extremely surprised if it was being done via an RTC's bank account, since even if their books aren't open they still have books, tax returns, etc. Stuff that creates a big paper trail. A booster doing it directly doesn't create anywhere near that amount of traceability. I was just saying that getting hung up on the RTC part is missing the point. It is booster money either way, whether there is an extra step involved or not. And if an athlete is actually part of the RTC then it is a little grey but not something the NCAA does or should care about, since RTCs can pay athletes whatever they want to pay them. What the NCAA would care about is if they are cutting checks to athletes who aren't legitimately part of the RTC in order to get around scholarship limitations.

 

If somebody like Kyle Snyder chooses to be a walk on or take a minuscule amount of money because he is secure in the knowledge that he'll be taken care of later by the RTC that isn't something to care about. If *insert random guy from a lineup who has no Freestyle pedigree or aspiration* is walking on or taking a minuscule amount of money because he is secure in the knowledge that he'll be taken care of later that is something to care about. Because in the first case the money he'll eventually get is actually for being part of the RTC and doing RTC things. In the second case the money would be for wrestling for X school and doing college wrestling things.

I think you’re getting pretty deep into the semantics of the whole debate.

 

The accusation is that college coaches are telling athletes “take one for the team and we’ll make sure you’re taken care of on the back end” or taking it even further “we’re building a super team so I need you to come to cuz university for 25% scholarship but we’ll make sure you’re taken care of after school”

 

Once a wrestler is out of college there’s no way to track or prove what they are receiving money for. Even if you were to bring the accusation to them, the RTCs could simply say “we’re paying him to be a part of the club”

 

I hate to point to PSU because certain people will fly off the handle, but what the hell is Jordan conaway doing on the resident athlete program for the NLWC? He is certainly overshadowed in achievements by his teammates.

 

Now, I’m not tartgeting one program over the others - I could say the same for Alex Meyer if not for his decent showing in Greco recently.

 

I suppose you could start subpoenaing for wrestlers w2’s and then if you see irregularities (ie a one time AA being paid roughy the same as James green) but even then it would be a stretch and assumptive at best to say that it is some sort of repayment for student loans or accepting a lesser scholarship.

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The entire wrestling community in the aggregate came up with the idea of RTC's as a way to promote freestyle wrestling at the senior level, as well as to promote a lot of other very healthy things for the sport of wrestling. And that is what they did. They raised awareness for the sport, and for the wrestlers. 

 

The Ohio State University is getting exposure from both their own RTC site, but also from Titan Mercury. 

 

http://tmwc1.com/

 

When you click on the Ohio RTC site and click further to Club and Join, you get a huge picture of Kyle Snyder draped in the US Flag with these words in the caption: 

 

The OhioRTC is a private non-profit organization with the mission of promoting our local wrestlers in pursuing their Olympic and World goals. With your help in donating to the OhioRTC, we can continue to support our wrestlers in their endeavors across the globe. Currently, we have two world team members that are able to compete at a championship level thanks to your donations to the OhioRTC so far. Everything that we do at OhioRTC is done to help promote and support our athletes accomplish their goals. 

 

http://www.totalcamps.com/OHIORTC

 

 

The Oklahoma RTC pictures John Smith and their site is more basic. It sticks with the USA Wrestling template a lot more. Minnesota's site is the basic Wresting USA template as well. They could stand to raise a little more money to build these sites out a little better. 

 

The Nittany Lion Wrestling Club has a site that pretty much only Ohio State can rival right now. It is easy to see why young wrestlers want to attend either Ohio State or Penn State. They no doubt view these two programs as the very best, above all others right now. That is the power of exciting wrestling, good ideas, and strong leadership. 

 

https://www.nittanylionwrestlingclub.com/

 

All of these RTC's pay, and the more successful ones probably pay a little more. Kind of like the difference between working for Google or working for Joe Schmoe's Search Engine. 

 

Of course, if you are a fan of Joe Schmoe, you could be a tad jealous of those higher paid guys with the stock options at Google. 

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I think you’re getting pretty deep into the semantics of the whole debate.

 

The accusation is that college coaches are telling athletes “take one for the team and we’ll make sure you’re taken care of on the back end” or taking it even further “we’re building a super team so I need you to come to cuz university for 25% scholarship but we’ll make sure you’re taken care of after school”

 

Once a wrestler is out of college there’s no way to track or prove what they are receiving money for. Even if you were to bring the accusation to them, the RTCs could simply say “we’re paying him to be a part of the club”

 

I hate to point to PSU because certain people will fly off the handle, but what the hell is Jordan conaway doing on the resident athlete program for the NLWC? He is certainly overshadowed in achievements by his teammates.

 

Now, I’m not tartgeting one program over the others - I could say the same for Alex Meyer if not for his decent showing in Greco recently.

 

I suppose you could start subpoenaing for wrestlers w2’s and then if you see irregularities (ie a one time AA being paid roughy the same as James green) but even then it would be a stretch and assumptive at best to say that it is some sort of repayment for student loans or accepting a lesser scholarship.

 

 

He is probably trying to improve his skills. And who are you to say he doesn't belong? That is a judgment call, and those making the judgment are not us here on themat.com. 

 

People have been telling Conoway he doesn't belong his whole life. They said the same thing when Sanderson offered him several years ago, but he ended up starting for PSU for several years. He has a knack for improvement over time. And if not, then all we can say is he availed himself of every opportunity he had. He gave it his all. Isn't that what wrestling is supposed to be about?

Edited by TBar1977

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I suppose you could start subpoenaing for wrestlers w2’s and then if you see irregularities (ie a one time AA being paid roughy the same as James green) but even then it would be a stretch and assumptive at best to say that it is some sort of repayment for student loans or accepting a lesser scholarship.

 

 

You, a wrestling fan, or even the NCAA, are going to get a subpoena based on exactly what? The NCAA does not have subpoena power. 

Edited by TBar1977

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He is probably trying to improve his skills. And who are you to say he doesn't belong? That is a judgment call, and those making the judgment are not us here on themat.com.

 

People have been telling Conoway he doesn't belong his whole life. They said the same thing when Sanderson offered him several years ago, but he ended up starting for PSU for several years. He has a knack for improvement over time. And if not, then all we can say is he availed himself of every opportunity he had. He gave it his all. Isn't that what wrestling is supposed to be about?

So he should be on payroll to get better? I feel like the dollars could be spent better elsewhere. That’s my whole point is who is on payroll, not who’s at the club. Hell I wrestled the guys with the HWC and I had no business being there. I also wasn’t on the payroll. You do realize that resident athlete means getting paid right?

 

Also, you are exactly the reason for my caveat at the beginning of that paragraph.

 

LOL. You, a wrestling fan, or even the NCAA, are going to get a subpoena based on exactly what? You realize the NCAA does not have subpoena power. Or maybe you don't realize that.

 

Again, that was my point is it would be reaching to say the least. Take the tinfoil hat off for a second and join the discussion. If you would stop raising your shield to defend PSU in every thread (like they are up to something and need defended?) then you could join into a spirited and controversial wrestling discussion.

 

You keep making reference to the RTCs being very good for wrestling (a point which I agree wholeheartedly with) but let me ask you this, do you honestly in the bottom of your heart, think that this years recruiting class for PSU is GOOD for wrestling?

Edited by Witherman

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So he should be on payroll to get better? I feel like the dollars could be spent better elsewhere. That’s my whole point is who is on payroll, not who’s at the club. Hell I wrestled the guys with the HWC and I had no business being there. I also wasn’t on the payroll. You do realize that resident athlete means getting paid right?

 

Also, you are exactly the reason for my caveat at the beginning of that paragraph.

 

Again, that was my point is it would be reaching to say the least. Take the tinfoil hat off for a second and join the discussion. If you would stop raising your shield to defend PSU in every thread (like they are up to something and need defended?) then you could join into a spirited and controversial wrestling discussion.

 

You keep making reference to the RTCs being very good for wrestling (a point which I agree wholeheartedly with) but let me ask you this, do you honestly in the bottom of your heart, think that this years recruiting class for PSU is GOOD for wrestling?

Witherman, I will try to answer your questions and respond to your comments.

 

One, it is not up to you, me or anyone else here on themat.com to decide which wrestlers get paid by RTC's. It is up to those RTC's. This is so at your Iowa RTC as well as TMWC, NLWC, or any other club. They don't owe you or me an explanation or an audit.

 

Two, is Penn State's recruiting class good for wrestling? Its at least as fine as Iowa's classes under Gable.

 

Three, I may be the reason for your caveat, but you are the personification of my caveat. The Iowa wrestling fan who never complained when the hawkeyes were winning but complains vigorously now that they are also rans. You literally sound defeated by what has happened the last several years. My advice for Iowa is simple. Stop complaining and start competing better, and if that doesn't work then get a better coach who is better prepared to get it done.

 

Your problems at Iowa are not anyone else's issue. They are yours. Your fan base can cry until the end of time, but you are not being cheated, you are just up against a better coach or three that are cleaning your clocks.

Edited by TBar1977

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