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The end of today's FRL and the implications for college wrestling

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Witherman, I will try to answer your questions and respond to your comments.

 

One, it is not up to you, me or anyone else here on themat.com to decide which wrestlers get paid by RTC's. It is up to those RTC's. This is so at your Iowa RTC as well as TMWC, NLWC, or any other club. They don't owe you or me an explanation or an audit.

 

Two, is Penn State's recruiting class good for wrestling? Its at least as fine as Iowa's classes under Gable.

 

Three, I may be the reason for your caveat, but you are the personification of my caveat. The Iowa wrestling fan who never complained when the hawkeyes were winning but complains vigorously now that they are also rans. You literally sound defeated by what has happened the last several years. My advice for Iowa is simple. Stop complaining and start competing better, and if that doesn't work then get a better coach who is better prepared to get it done.

 

Your problems at Iowa are not anyone else's issue. They are yours. Your fan base can cry until the end of time, but you are not being cheated, you are just up against a better coach or three that are cleaning your clocks.

Not necessarily. Clubs are nonprofits. If they are 501©, most of their books are for public consumption.

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I can't believe you squeezed that many words into, "My team is above the law."

Why don't you come out and say exactly what you think you know. Tell us exactly what rules you think have been broken. Tell us exactly what school and RTC is breaking those rules. Tell exactly what coach is making what promises.You want to make accusations of wrong doing? Then say it out loud. I'm really looking forward to you writing more than 2 coherent sentences.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Well, that has nothing to do with a subpoena of wrestler's w2's. And Flo already got to RTC's books, so where are all those w2's???

They owe a public audit - if they are nonprofit.

As far as subpoenas go, it wouldn't take much evidence to get one. They have done it countless times before.

I think it's so easy to get them RTCs would not run this scam. That being said, it's odd how some teams can get people to pay 40-50k per year to wrestle when they could wrestle for free elsewhere.

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You guys - and you know who you are - ruin every fkng thread on this board.  It may be asking too much but I think we mostly come here for the scores, injury updates, prognostications, some excellent photo shop, etc.  Basically informed chatter and camaraderie. 

 

As we enter into what should be a terrific season for individuals (125, 141, 165 through 197!!, second place at HVY), and team competitions perhaps maybe we can not hit Post on the "Your stupid / No, you're stoopid" commentary? 

 

We're all ex-wrestlers I assume and, in general, would never do this crap face to face. 

 

Hope springs eternal in the human breast.  

This.  Oh my god this.

 

I cringe everytime I open a thread.  Do we have moderators anymore on this forum, or what?

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They owe a public audit - if they are nonprofit.

As far as subpoenas go, it wouldn't take much evidence to get one. They have done it countless times before.

I think it's so easy to get them RTCs would not run this scam. That being said, it's odd how some teams can get people to pay 40-50k per year to wrestle when they could wrestle for free elsewhere.

 

Non profits are subject to audit from the IRS and State regulators. This is to prove ongoing compliance with non profit statutes, not to prove they have better or worse wrestlers than the team some disgruntled fan follows. What must be made publicly available upon request is what Flo got, their tax filings. Probably form 990. This form requires disclosure of who the donors are and what directors and key employees are compensated. I doubt this includes the wrestlers themselves. 

 

And just who is "they" that have gotten subpoenas countless times before? The NCAA has no subpoena power. So who is going to do this, the IRS? Why would they do your bidding? 

Edited by TBar1977

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Witherman, I will try to answer your questions and respond to your comments.

 

One, it is not up to you, me or anyone else here on themat.com to decide which wrestlers get paid by RTC's. It is up to those RTC's. This is so at your Iowa RTC as well as TMWC, NLWC, or any other club. They don't owe you or me an explanation or an audit.

 

Two, is Penn State's recruiting class good for wrestling? Its at least as fine as Iowa's classes under Gable.

 

Three, I may be the reason for your caveat, but you are the personification of my caveat. The Iowa wrestling fan who never complained when the hawkeyes were winning but complains vigorously now that they are also rans. You literally sound defeated by what has happened the last several years. My advice for Iowa is simple. Stop complaining and start competing better, and if that doesn't work then get a better coach who is better prepared to get it done.

 

Your problems at Iowa are not anyone else's issue. They are yours. Your fan base can cry until the end of time, but you are not being cheated, you are just up against a better coach or three that are cleaning your clocks.

 

Your tone truly is insufferable, makes me want to just throw you on ignore honestly.  You get so defensive and quick to defend anything PSU related.  I was merely using a quick example that I found.  Next time I'll try to use tOSU or OSU and leave out your beloved Nittany Lions.

 

One: Who said they owed an explanation?  I couldn't care less the explanation, I was using an example of someone who doesn't seem to have the credentials that his paid teammates do.

 

Two: I'm no historian, and I doubt they were doing P4P high school rankings back in the day, but I can't imagine a class like this year's PSU class has ever been recruited in the history of collegiate wrestling.  If someone has the data points to disprove this, please do because I am intrigued to know.

 

Three:  I'm not in this discussion due to the downturn of the Hawkeye wrestling program.  Hell for all I know, the hawks could be playing in this dirty game as well.  I haven't the foggiest idea who is involved, but I also know that when it comes to smoke, there is usually fire somewhere behind it.  PSU has the unfortunate burden of, due to its massive success lately, having all the fingers pointed at them for this stuff. 

 

You have taken it upon yourself to be named their person white knight and will jump at the opportunity to divert any negative attention their way.  That's fine, that's your choice.  My choice is to not ignore something that could be a massive black mark on the sport from a collegiate level, a level which the NCAA gives no sort of **** about today and IMO other than the B1G, won't hesitate to drop the sport if something like this is uncovered.

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And just who is "they" that have gotten subpoenas countless times before? The NCAA has no subpoena power. So who is going to do this, the IRS? Why would they do your bidding? 

 

just in case you aren't quite sure how the subpoena process works, anyone (including you, I, or FloWrestling) can file for a subpoena. 

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The Hammerhead claims to, yet when asked to explain he gave an incomplete 1 line answer that didn't answer anything!

 

What hammer does or says has absolutely nothing to do with me or my opinion on the subject.  If someone was to ask me directly who was involved, I wouldn't lead that I had any idea who was doing what, but I would also share my opinion that I wouldn't be surprised if there was funny business in multiple programs.

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What hammer does or says has absolutely nothing to do with me or my opinion on the subject.  If someone was to ask me directly who was involved, I wouldn't lead that I had any idea who was doing what, but I would also share my opinion that I wouldn't be surprised if there was funny business in multiple programs.

 

Which is why I hold you in much higher regard than the Hammerhead.

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just in case you aren't quite sure how the subpoena process works, anyone (including you, I, or FloWrestling) can file for a subpoena. 

 

 

I am aware of how this works. A subpoena is a court order and therefore there can not be a subpoena issued without a legal action pending. A party to the legal action requests the court issue the subpoena and if the Court agrees, it will issue the subpoena with the appropriate instructions, i.e., witness to appear, company (in this case a non profit that is trying to help young wrestlers reach their Olympic dreams) to produce records, etc. 

 

On what basis would any court agree that you, me or Flo deserve information beyond the public filings of a non profit RTC? What would you seek? How much in grant money is given to each wrestler?  

 

That will get you precisely nowhere, imo. I just doubt a court would deem this in the public interest without a lot of evidence of some kind of fraud. 

Edited by TBar1977

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You hold him in higher esteem for knowing less than me?

 

I hold him in higher esteem than you for being more intelligent than you and for the ability to explain his point of view. I asked you to explain what you knew, what was being violated, and by whom to which you responded with 1 line that said "illegal inflation of scholarships."

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One: Who said they owed an explanation?  I couldn't care less the explanation, I was using an example of someone who doesn't seem to have the credentials that his paid teammates do.


 


Others have claimed to be owed an explanation. And you wanted to know in another post who was getting paid, so at a minimum you imply you are owed an explanation. But the thing is, Flo obtained what was publicly owed which is their tax filings. These docs don't disclose which wrestlers receive grants, and how much those grants are for. So you or anyone else would have to convince a court to compel an RTC to disclose that information. I can't see why a court would deem this necessary, especially to satisfy the curiosity of sports fans. 


 


 


Two: I'm no historian, and I doubt they were doing P4P high school rankings back in the day, but I can't imagine a class like this year's PSU class has ever been recruited in the history of collegiate wrestling.  If someone has the data points to disprove this, please do because I am intrigued to know.


 


PSU has a great class. So what. They have a great coach too. Maybe one goes with the other. 


 


 


Three:  I'm not in this discussion due to the downturn of the Hawkeye wrestling program.  Hell for all I know, the hawks could be playing in this dirty game as well.  I haven't the foggiest idea who is involved, but I also know that when it comes to smoke, there is usually fire somewhere behind it.  PSU has the unfortunate burden of, due to its massive success lately, having all the fingers pointed at them for this stuff. 


 


You have taken it upon yourself to be named their person white knight and will jump at the opportunity to divert any negative attention their way.  That's fine, that's your choice.  My choice is to not ignore something that could be a massive black mark on the sport from a collegiate level, a level which the NCAA gives no sort of **** about today and IMO other than the B1G, won't hesitate to drop the sport if something like this is uncovered.


 


Here's the thing, Witherman. Who created the RTC's? Did Penn State or Cael Sanderson create the RTC's? No, they were the idea of the entire collective wrestling community. Why were they created? To advance wrestling in the USA thru grants to wrestlers who show promise. That is subjective, both in the amount they grant to each wrestler, and how they choose the wrestlers.


 


One thing that is not very subjective is who chooses the wrestlers. That is left up to the experts at each RTC. Cael Sanderson doesn't tell Tom Brands who to put in the RTC at Iowa City, and Brands doesn't tell Cael Sanderson who to put in the RTC at NLWC. That is just the way the system works, and it has worked wonderfully. Look at the results.


 


The fact that some RTC's are better funded than others is due to the fact that some create more excitement than others, I suppose. But who is to tell a donor to not give, because some guy somewhere else will get upset about his locally made gift? And who is to direct the experts at one RTC to not make the grants? Non profits are not allowed to just sit on money. They are compelled to pay it out. Not 100% by law, mind you, but they can't just keep holding onto money without doing the work of the non profit, which in this case is developing wrestlers. 


 


You say you are not curious due to anything going on at Iowa, but you'd be a massive exception to the way things work over at Hawkeye Report if this is 100% true. That whole board is dedicated full time to the "Cael Cheats" story. 


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Non profits are subject to audit from the IRS and State regulators. This is to prove ongoing compliance with non profit statutes, not to prove they have better or worse wrestlers than the team some disgruntled fan follows. What must be made publicly available upon request is what Flo got, their tax filings. Probably form 990. This form requires disclosure of who the donors are and what directors and key employees are compensated. I doubt this includes the wrestlers themselves.

 

And just who is "they" that have gotten subpoenas countless times before? The NCAA has no subpoena power. So who is going to do this, the IRS? Why would they do your bidding?

Courts issue subpoenas. The NCAA initiates civil suits all the time. Subpoenas accompany those. How do you think they investigate matters? They can't levy 60 million dollar fines without knowing their way around a courtroom.

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Courts issue subpoenas. The NCAA initiates civil suits all the time. Subpoenas accompany those. How do you think they investigate matters? They can't levy 60 million dollar fines without knowing their way around a courtroom.

 

 

The NCAA by itself does not have subpoena power. In the matter we are discussing they would have to file a lawsuit against an RTC which, to the best of my knowledge, they don't have any authority over. On what basis would that lawsuit be filed? 

 

The ncaa levies fines all the time against University athletic depts without ever stepping foot into a courtroom. But how does that get them access to RTC record books? And what would they do even if they could get to that information? They'd find out that the RTC's are doing exactly what they stated they would do, develop wrestlers and promote wrestling. OK, then what? 

 

Flo actually posted the 990's for all the clubs that mattered. They posted the actual forms for 2013, 2014 and 2015. Forget what the clubs received in donations for a minute. Look at what their expenses were. You want to look there because that is the money being paid out to sponsor camps, tournaments, and wrestlers as a whole.

 

In those 3 years in total Hawkeye WC had expenses of about $1,035,000. NLWC had expenses of about $1,477,000. So the difference in expenses isn't the same as the difference in their bank accounts, which we all know NLWC has the largest "endowment" among all the clubs simply because  one donor gave a lot of money. 

 

Now, the difference in expenses is about $440,000 over 3 years. But NLWC has a full time employed Secretary who make about $70,000 per year, so reduce that difference by 3 x $70,000 = $210,000. Now the net difference, the expenses for camps, tournaments and the like is only $230,000 over 3 years, or little more than $75,000 per year. That could be explained by having a few more camps, paying Yonemitsu and Gomez a little more. Anything really.

 

It ain't enough money to buy NCAA Championships and it surely isn't enough to pay off all those college loans so many Hawkeye fans think they are paying off. Surely you are smart enough to realize this much. 

Edited by TBar1977

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The NCAA by itself does not have subpoena power. In the matter we are discussing they would have to file a lawsuit against an RTC which, to the best of my knowledge, they don't have any authority over. On what basis would that lawsuit be filed?

 

The ncaa levies fines all the time against University athletic depts without ever stepping foot into a courtroom. But how does that get them access to RTC record books? And what would they do even if they could get to that information? They'd find out that the RTC's are doing exactly what they stated they would do, develop wrestlers and promote wrestling. OK, then what?

 

Flo actually posted the 990's for all the clubs that mattered. They posted the actual forms for 2013, 2014 and 2015. Forget what the clubs received in donations for a minute. Look at what their expenses were. You want to look there because that is the money being paid out to sponsor camps, tournaments, and wrestlers as a whole.

 

In those 3 years in total Hawkeye WC had expenses of about $1,035,000. NLWC had expenses of about $1,477,000. So the difference in expenses isn't the same as the difference in their bank accounts, which we all know NLWC has the largest "endowment" among all the clubs simply because one donor gave a lot of money.

 

Now, the difference in expenses is about $440,000 over 3 years. But NLWC has a full time employed Secretary who make about $70,000 per year, so reduce that difference by 3 x $70,000 = $210,000. Now the net difference, the expenses for camps, tournaments and the like is only $230,000 over 3 years, or little more than $75,000 per year. That could be explained by having a few more camps, paying Yonemitsu and Gomez a little more. Anything really.

 

It ain't enough money to buy NCAA Championships and it surely isn't enough to pay off all those college loans so many Hawkeye fans think they are paying off. Surely you are smart enough to realize this much.

The difference between HWC and NLWC is irrelevant. 500k per year is a lot of money. In fact, it is way more than PSU pays in scholarships per year.

 

Not sure what the basis for a subpoena would be. Whistle blower, witness or scholarship pattern I suppose. It does happen. IF the NCAA wanted to look at them due to an investigation that PSU is obliged to cooperate with, there is going to be pressure brought to bear by psu itself.

 

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

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The difference between HWC and NLWC is irrelevant. 500k per year is a lot of money. In fact, it is way more than PSU pays in scholarships per year.

 

Not sure what the basis for a subpoena would be. Whistle blower, witness or scholarship pattern I suppose. It does happen. IF the NCAA wanted to look at them due to an investigation that PSU is obliged to cooperate with, there is going to be pressure brought to bear by psu itself.

 

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

 

 

The difference between what the two clubs paid out is about 75K per year. You can't pay off college loans with that, and it can be entirely explained by actually having higher expenses. 

 

My protest is commensurate with the amount of conspiracy theory energy coming the other way. If you don't think it is on the up and up then sue them. See if a court will provide you the subpoena we have been talking about. 

Edited by TBar1977

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