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#41 Housebuye

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:16 AM

We are not even close to the best wrestling nation until we start improving our upper body technique and placing medalists in Greco. If you take our Greco results and add it to our Freestyle, we are more middle-of-the-pack. Freestyle is a "sexier" style for lack of better wording. So we have focused on that. But we are so lacking in upper body technique, which is what the average person thinks of when they think wrestler.

Someone mentioned it was good we don't do well in freetyle. I really really disagree. Plus, if rules ever change to reward throws more, and they eventually will I predict, then we will be facing a technique vacuum. As a country we have to stop calling a guy looking for a throw who is not shooting for stalling. We also need to stop letting guys shoot in only to hold onto the leg for stalemate. To some degree that is stalling. But mostly, we need to train our kids in throwing more and get more tieups.

Again, until we do well in Greco, we are at best middle of the pack in the world of wrestling. One of the 4 or 5 best in Freestyle, but 10th or worse in Greco.

They are different sports

We are one of the best in freestyle

We are not good at Greco

Adding the medals together isn’t a valuable metric

Might as well throw BJJ in there if you are going to do that. They are totally different sports.

#42 ConnorsDad

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:38 AM

Yes we're not as good in it. So we can either bitch about it or keep working. I shudder to think where we would be had Lindland not taken over. We have a couple of young guys who are decent. We just need to keep working. Just bitching without offering solutions doesn't help and dropping the sport is a chicken**** way out

#43 Abdullahgadzhi Khuzin

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:39 AM

We are not even close to the best wrestling nation until we start improving our upper body technique and placing medalists in Greco.  If you take our Greco results and add it to our Freestyle, we are more middle-of-the-pack. Freestyle is a "sexier" style for lack of better wording. So we have focused on that. But we are so lacking in upper body technique, which is what the average person thinks of when they think wrestler.   

 

Someone mentioned it was good we don't do well in freetyle. I really really disagree.  Plus, if rules ever change to reward throws more, and they eventually will I predict, then we will be facing a technique vacuum.  As a country we have to stop calling a guy looking for a throw who is not shooting for stalling. We also need to stop letting guys shoot in only to hold onto the leg for stalemate. To some degree that is stalling.  But mostly, we need to train our kids in throwing more and get more tieups.  

 

Again, until we do well in Greco, we are at best middle of the pack in the world of wrestling. One of the 4 or 5 best in Freestyle, but 10th or worse in Greco. 

ut mostly, we need to train our kids in throwing more and get more tieups.  LOL. Where kids can train greco if around folkstyle????  the  sport system in the U.S. killed many disciplines. You have implemented folkstyle. (folk style is good, created many good fighters) into the school system. "As you sow, so u shall u  reap"


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The opinions and views expressed in my posts, are intended to promote Russian international styles wrestling and international wrestling in general. Please excuse misspellings, misunderstandings, or misinterpretations. I am doing my very best to communicate in English, but it is a work in progress. I speak several languages, but I am still learning context, culture, and local tradition. I love USA and I am doing my best to be a great ambassador. Thank you for understanding.

#44 de4856

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 10:11 AM

Well our Greco performance was disappointing, but let's hope the Women and Freestylers have better results.

#45 Cletus_Tucker

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:31 PM

ut mostly, we need to train our kids in throwing more and get more tieups.  LOL. Where kids can train greco if around folkstyle????  the  sport system in the U.S. killed many disciplines. You have implemented folkstyle. (folk style is good, created many good fighters) into the school system. "As you sow, so u shall u  reap"

 

Outstanding progression with your English Abdullah.  I am impress.  


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#46 Cletus_Tucker

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:32 PM

Bey got robbery refs! 

 

Bey he lose????

 

He go to repechage? 

 

Is it medal, what color it is?


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#47 Housebuye

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:04 AM

No medals today either for The US

#48 Fishhook

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 02:47 AM

They are different sports

We are one of the best in freestyle

We are not good at Greco

Adding the medals together isn’t a valuable metric

Might as well throw BJJ in there if you are going to do that. They are totally different sports.

No they aren't and Wrestling is the father of almost all martial arts anyway.  Greco and freestyle have the same basics. Positioning and strength become a bit more important. Greco Roman and Freestyle are the same sport, different disciplines.  Butterfly and backstroke are still swimming.  

 

We need to get better as a country and I am disgusted that people on here are saying that Greco needs to die in America? ....we need to get better and we need to get more throwing involved in folkstyle in order to improve our overall wrestling skills, but also to attract people to wrestling. Big Throws really sell the sport. 


Edited by Fishhook, 23 November 2017 - 02:47 AM.


#49 Fishhook

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 02:49 AM

They are different sports

We are one of the best in freestyle

We are not good at Greco

Adding the medals together isn’t a valuable metric

Might as well throw BJJ in there if you are going to do that. They are totally different sports.

We are behind Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan pretty consistent in Freestyle, though not this year.  On average, in Freestyle we are about third or fourth.  If we got better at upper body ties I think our freestyle results would improve even more.  As far as shooting and finishing we are by far the best though.  I just wish we were more well-rounded in basic wrestling skills. 



#50 boconnell

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:32 AM

No they aren't and Wrestling is the father of almost all martial arts anyway.  Greco and freestyle have the same basics. Positioning and strength become a bit more important. Greco Roman and Freestyle are the same sport, different disciplines.  Butterfly and backstroke are still swimming.  

 

We need to get better as a country and I am disgusted that people on here are saying that Greco needs to die in America? ....we need to get better and we need to get more throwing involved in folkstyle in order to improve our overall wrestling skills, but also to attract people to wrestling. Big Throws really sell the sport. 

Do you really think throwing has much of a place in modern Greco?  Modern Greco is pushing, blocking, and penalty points.  There is nothing in modern greco that sells the sport.  


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#51 Housebuye

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:43 AM

No they aren't and Wrestling is the father of almost all martial arts anyway. Greco and freestyle have the same basics. Positioning and strength become a bit more important. Greco Roman and Freestyle are the same sport, different disciplines. Butterfly and backstroke are still swimming.

We need to get better as a country and I am disgusted that people on here are saying that Greco needs to die in America? ....we need to get better and we need to get more throwing involved in folkstyle in order to improve our overall wrestling skills, but also to attract people to wrestling. Big Throws really sell the sport.

Ok. So add Submission wrestling to your list. Why are you singling our Greco? Because UWW decided? Modern Greco is not any more wrestling than submission grappling.

#52 Housebuye

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:47 AM

We are behind Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan pretty consistent in Freestyle, though not this year. On average, in Freestyle we are about third or fourth. If we got better at upper body ties I think our freestyle results would improve even more. As far as shooting and finishing we are by far the best though. I just wish we were more well-rounded in basic wrestling skills.

We are a top 5 wrestling power. I’d like to think maybe even top 3, but we need to replicate our success from 2017 before we can say that.

Our freestyle might improve if we do more Greco, but that isn’t a given. It’s also not th argument being discussed.

I’m not anti Greco. I don’t enjoy it as much, but I don’t want them to get rid of it. It just doesn’t bother me all that much that the US is terrible at it.

I’d prefer to improve there, but I’d rather be even better at freestyle.

I’m glad Lindland is doing whatever he can to improve our Greco team. I hope he succeeds.
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#53 gimpeltf

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:57 AM

Do you really think throwing has much of a place in modern Greco?  Modern Greco is pushing, blocking, and penalty points.  There is nothing in modern greco that sells the sport.  

 

It's pushing, blocking, and penalty points at the highest levels BECAUSE they know how to throw and how to defend the throws. 



#54 boconnell

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 07:48 AM

It's pushing, blocking, and penalty points at the highest levels BECAUSE they know how to throw and how to defend the throws. 

I don't disagree at all.  I love Greco and think it's hugely valuable as a learning style.  But when the guys are that good it is almost impossible to create a rule set that leads to anything other than incredibly boring pushing matches.  So the whole sport becomes who is best at winning whatever random penalty system they currently use.  



#55 de4856

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:45 AM

Well our girls did not do that well today, maybe we will have better luck tomorrow.

#56 wrestlingnerd

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:51 AM

I don't disagree at all. I love Greco and think it's hugely valuable as a learning style. But when the guys are that good it is almost impossible to create a rule set that leads to anything other than incredibly boring pushing matches. So the whole sport becomes who is best at winning whatever random penalty system they currently use.


This is exactly the problem with the sport. With video available worldwide now for scouting to help with match preparation and the natural evolution of technique, the guys who devote their lives to the sport and are elite competitors have tiny edges over each other at best. Occasionally you’ll have a physical freak who can put it on anyone, but those guys are rare exceptions.

#57 gimpeltf

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:59 AM

I don't disagree at all. I love Greco and think it's hugely valuable as a learning style. But when the guys are that good it is almost impossible to create a rule set that leads to anything other than incredibly boring pushing matches. So the whole sport becomes who is best at winning whatever random penalty system they currently use.


The previous poster said that the freestylers might do better if they did more Greco. You said that Greco was all pushing. I said that high level was pushing because they DID know how to throw and how to defend throws. But they still learned how along the way. Whether or not high level Greco is fun to watch for Americans is a completely different argument as to whether it can help the freestylers from a performance standpoint. Also, Americans feel similarly about high level soccer as to high level Greco.

#58 boconnell

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 10:50 AM

The previous poster said that the freestylers might do better if they did more Greco. You said that Greco was all pushing. I said that high level was pushing because they DID know how to throw and how to defend throws. But they still learned how along the way. Whether or not high level Greco is fun to watch for Americans is a completely different argument as to whether it can help the freestylers from a performance standpoint. Also, Americans feel similarly about high level soccer as to high level Greco.

I said Greco was pushing in response to him saying Greco was about throws and throws sell the sport.  I will agree all day Greco is a great thing.  I will disagree all day that Greco is fan friendly and sells the sport.  

 

And millions of American fans watch high level European soccer.  NBC paid $1 Billion to broadcast it in the USA for 6 years.  So while some don't like the lack of scoring in soccer, tens of millions in this country do.  That is nothing like Greco which is unwatchable even by people who love competing in Greco.



#59 nom

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:02 PM

Greco is unwatchable ..... unless it is a mismatch. I’ve tried, I really have. I wanted to like it.
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#60 sgallan

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 03:05 PM

We are behind Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan pretty consistent in Freestyle, though not this year.  On average, in Freestyle we are about third or fourth.  If we got better at upper body ties I think our freestyle results would improve even more.  As far as shooting and finishing we are by far the best though.  I just wish we were more well-rounded in basic wrestling skills. 

 

I think, because of rule changes, freestyle has gotten closer to folk. Especially on your feet and mat positioning. On your feet is important because par terre opportunities are scarce unless you chain them. This, with regional training opportunities, and more consistent coaching..... our men's freestyle will be top 3 for the foreseeable future. Save for the dive in and roll around guys (like Heil) a lot of folkstyle translates now, and you can be a freestyle leaning wrestler and still do well in folk  (Snyder, Hall, Z Valenia, Gilman, etc....). Plus there are more guys wanting to throw there hat in the ring in freestyle and some more money as well. Greco is just different now. The rules change even more than freestyle. And more significantly than in freestyle as well. I gave up trying to keep up years ago. Even the weights are different. In the youth tournaments there isn't the kids wrestling both styles anymore. It is almost a regional thing with greco and a mostly Minnesota and Wisconsin style (I think, I couldn't say for sure) and the kids who just don't do as well in the other styles but have talent merge to greco but without a lot of success, and are often just going through the motions.  

 

Bottom line: People have said for years we need to concentrate more on freestyle to be successful there, but the two styles ended up meeting, to an extent, in the middle. There is nothing remotely similar to those styles, save some hand fighting, that relates to greco. We can hold position okay but do not have the capacity to score, because nothing kids do lead them to scoring in Greco. 






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