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Biggest flop in college

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16 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Brandon recruits that flippers could be its own thread 

I knew this sentiment would come up again after seeing this post come back to the board...

It bothers me as an alumni and former D1 wrestler; this is a small community, we should build each other up.

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1 hour ago, snapspinscore said:

I think this is a relatively decent conversation to have. We marvel at those with exceptional talent, whether they succeed and blow our minds, or they do not capitalize on that talent, and again blow our minds. I don't think it is out of the norm to point out when someone exceptional fails to succeed at what they are perceived to be exceptional at. It is intriguing to say the least.

If I am going to put my vote in on this, I think Eric Grajales is definitely one of the bigger "busts" for me. If had hadn't salvaged his career with an AA finish to end his career, he would definitely be one of the bigger busts in the last 20 years.

This is pretty much my exact thought.  Without that senior season NCAA tournament his competitive career would have been a bust.  Last I saw he was coaching at SIEU.  Is he still over there?

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55 minutes ago, TampaRyley said:

I knew this sentiment would come up again after seeing this post come back to the board...

It bothers me as an alumni and former D1 wrestler; this is a small community, we should build each other up.

I put much much much more blame on the parents and the system that produced the kids.. then the kids themselves….

But honestly with the Brandon kids. Most of them can be objectively called busts. I’m pretty sure Grajales is the only one who even AA’d
 

A lot of the names on the thread at least AA’d. So itd be more accurate to say they underachieved 

 

EDIT: I’ll be generous and acknowledge the fact that the entire Brandon program was set up to peak kids in high school. From the way they used that private middle school to hold kids back… and maximize their oldest possible age for before graduating. And the way they trained 

 

Edited by jp157

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5 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I put much much much more blame on the parents and the system that produced the kids.. then the kids themselves….

But honestly with the Brandon kids. Most of them can be objectively called busts. I’m pretty sure Grajales is the only one who even AA’d
 

A lot of the names on the thread at least AA’d. So itd be more accurate to say they underachieved 

 

EDIT: I’ll be generous and acknowledge the fact that the entire Brandon program was set up to peak kids in high school. From the way they used that private middle school to hold kids back… and maximize their oldest possible age for before graduating. And the way they trained 

 

To be clear - I am one of those 'kids' you are referring too. Many of us got scholarships to great schools and have fantastic careers now to thank for it. I'm fairly moved from the community now, however we had an amazing community while I was there.

 

'Blame'? How do you blame a community that pushes their kids to be successful? 

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8 minutes ago, TampaRyley said:

To be clear - I am one of those 'kids' you are referring too. Many of us got scholarships to great schools and have fantastic careers now to thank for it. I'm fairly moved from the community now, however we had an amazing community while I was there.

 

'Blame'? How do you blame a community that pushes their kids to be successful? 

Because it is way more fun for people that know nothing about the true situation to make things up to sound like internet super stars and keyboard warriors by cutting people and programs down that are successful.  This thread bashing on kids and calling them "flops" is 5 freaking pages long for crying out loud.

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7 minutes ago, TampaRyley said:

To be clear - I am one of those 'kids' you are referring too. Many of us got scholarships to great schools and have fantastic careers now to thank for it. I'm fairly moved from the community now, however we had an amazing community while I was there.

 

'Blame'? How do you blame a community that pushes their kids to be successful? 

I think the word 'blame' needs to be used only when focusing on collegiate D1 success.  When referencing real-life achievements as well as lessons, I am sure that you and the Brandon community have put more effort and support into everyone involved than 99.9% of high school programs have done.

Apologies if this thread brings offense to you.  It is meant to compare expectations to results, or lack thereof.  When you're a part of a high school program that wins 459 (actual number) dual match victories in a row and a greater than 97% all-time winning percentage, people will expect an extremely high level of results after high school.  No other high school program for any sport has had that sort of sustained and untainted success, ever.

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1 minute ago, dman115 said:

Because it is way more fun for people that know nothing about the true situation to make things up to sound like internet super stars and keyboard warriors by cutting people and programs down that are successful.  This thread bashing on kids and calling them "flops" is 5 freaking pages long for crying out loud.

Please see @treep2000's post earlier.  >18 means adult.

I don't make the rules.  I just break them.

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15 minutes ago, TampaRyley said:

To be clear - I am one of those 'kids' you are referring too. Many of us got scholarships to great schools and have fantastic careers now to thank for it. I'm fairly moved from the community now, however we had an amazing community while I was there.

 

'Blame'? How do you blame a community that pushes their kids to be successful? 

Because I also know a bunch of them underachieved more so due to burnout, overtraining, and HEW than any other factors…

I have been told that by people who both love and despise Brandon and Cozart btw. 

And I personally think that any system that peaks a top athletes athletic potential in high school is a flawed one. 
 

I’ve met several Brandon graduates and know people who know many as well. There is a reason I was very specific in putting the blame on the system in place and not on the kids..

But saying that a bunch of Brandon college recruits didn’t flop is also being dishonest 

Edited by jp157

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Just now, nhs67 said:

I think the word 'blame' needs to be used only when focusing on collegiate D1 success.  When referencing real-life achievements as well as lessons, I am sure that you and the Brandon community have put more effort and support into everyone involved than 99.9% of high school programs have done.

Apologies if this thread brings offense to you.  It is meant to compare expectations to results, or lack thereof.  When you're a part of a high school program that wins 459 (actual number) dual match victories in a row and a greater than 97% all-time winning percentage, people will expect an extremely high level of results after high school.  No other high school program for any sport has had that sort of sustained and untainted success, ever.

Agreed...but put it in perspective nhs...not ripping on FL by any means as their sports programs are amazing...they are not a OH or Penn by any stretch of the imagination in terms of depth and overall wrestling programs.  Thus, they were about as successful as you can get for a high school program no doubt and deserve all the accolades they get...based on wrestling in the state of FL.  Why can't it be left at that instead of saying those that wrestled for Brandon didn't have "success" in collage because they didn't win it all 4 years?  To me if you wrestle past high school at any level, that is success.  I know others have different definitions and that is fine, just my opinion.

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5 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Please see @treep2000's post earlier.  >18 means adult.

I don't make the rules.  I just break them.

LOL

And yes...I have no problem with people talking about those >18 years old.  It's more of how people define "success", and also how people talk crap about successful programs when they have no idea what it really is like, but base it on because a friend of a friend once talk to a guy that rode a bike next to them while surfing.

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4 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Agreed...but put it in perspective nhs...not ripping on FL by any means as their sports programs are amazing...they are not a OH or Penn by any stretch of the imagination in terms of depth and overall wrestling programs.  Thus, they were about as successful as you can get for a high school program no doubt and deserve all the accolades they get...based on wrestling in the state of FL.  Why can't it be left at that instead of saying those that wrestled for Brandon didn't have "success" in collage because they didn't win it all 4 years?  To me if you wrestle past high school at any level, that is success.  I know others have different definitions and that is fine, just my opinion.

I think anyone on here with any knowledge at all is discussing the wrestling results l… and not making any statements and the character of the athletes in question… 

At least I was. I don’t see a problem with discussing whether or not athletes lived up to expectations from a results standpoint. No one who has been around should see that as an attack on those athletes character as people..

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8 minutes ago, dman115 said:

LOL

And yes...I have no problem with people talking about those >18 years old.  It's more of how people define "success", and also how people talk crap about successful programs when they have no idea what it really is like, but base it on because a friend of a friend once talk to a guy that rode a bike next to them while surfing.

Did I say anything unfactual?

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24 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Did I say anything unfactual?

No idea.  I know nothing about Brandon other than their success and seeing their team at a tournament I coached at several years ago...several meaning many years ago when Grajales was there.  They had an amazing team back then...we did as well and they made us look very average. 

Anyway, I just get my panties in a bunch when I hear people comment on things within a program that they themselves have no idea if the things they say are true or not as well...other than "guessing".  I respect your opinion, but comments on coaching for only peaking in HS, burnout, parents, etc., coming from someone that was never part of the program, always get my dander up.   That Tampa dude was actually part of the program...or at least he said he was.  :)

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3 hours ago, snapspinscore said:

I think this is a relatively decent conversation to have. We marvel at those with exceptional talent, whether they succeed and blow our minds, or they do not capitalize on that talent, and again blow our minds. I don't think it is out of the norm to point out when someone exceptional fails to succeed at what they are perceived to be exceptional at. It is intriguing to say the least.

If I am going to put my vote in on this, I think Eric Grajales is definitely one of the bigger "busts" for me. If had hadn't salvaged his career with an AA finish to end his career, he would definitely be one of the bigger busts in the last 20 years.

He was never #1 in the country, but he'll always be #1 in my heart

 

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15 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

He was never #1 in the country, but he'll always be #1 in my heart

 

People bust on this match, but personally, I love it.  High drama.  Also, you can't call Grajales a "flop" when he took third in the NCAAs one year.  You just can't.  David Craig is the one that killed me the most, though that seems to have been self-admittedly because he just was using wrestling to get his education and didn't truly love the sport.  He could have been a total monster if he loved it, he was so gifted. I saw a lot of these guys wrestle, as I was a Florida high school wrestler.  Let me tell you though, I have never been more impressed or surprised then when I watched Rocky Cozart, who was in 8th grade but I assumed he would win because of the last name, get absolutely demolished by some kid I'd never heard of in the state finals named Sam Hazewinkel.

Edited by VakAttack

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55 minutes ago, dman115 said:

No idea.  I know nothing about Brandon other than their success and seeing their team at a tournament I coached at several years ago...several meaning many years ago when Grajales was there.  They had an amazing team back then...we did as well and they made us look very average. 

Anyway, I just get my panties in a bunch when I hear people comment on things within a program that they themselves have no idea if the things they say are true or not as well...other than "guessing".  I respect your opinion, but comments on coaching for only peaking in HS, burnout, parents, etc., coming from someone that was never part of the program, always get my dander up.   That Tampa dude was actually part of the program...or at least he said he was.  :)

I literally know people who were involved and know people who live and coach in the area. I kept what I said factual. There’s plenty of other things I’ve heard that falls under what you’re talking about. 
 

Like I said. I know people who think highly of Cozart and Brandon and visa versa. The one thing they agreed on was why Brandon kids never even came close to “wrestling” expectations in college or above. Disagree if you want. I stated my view on the wrestling aspect 

 

I’ll even say. As far as the powerhouse programs go.. I’ve not ever really heard anything bad about Brandon grads as people. Vs. other programs where I’ve heard and seen the opposite. 
 

I don’t get why people are taking discussion of wrestling results as an attack on character 

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JP - no attack meant on my side. Just seeing events through different lenses I suppose. 

Unc B- That match... I remember honestly tearing up during it, EG is a close close friend

Edited by TampaRyley

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34 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

People bust on this match, but personally, I love it.  High drama.  Also, you can't call Grajales a "flop" when he took third in the NCAAs one year.  You just can't.  David Craig is the one that killed me the most, though that seems to have been self-admittedly because he just was using wrestling to get his education and didn't truly love the sport.  He could have been a total monster if he loved it, he was so gifted. I saw a lot of these guys wrestle, as I was a Florida high school wrestler.  Let me tell you though, I have never been more impressed or surprised then when I watched Rocky Cozart, who was in 8th grade but I assumed he would win because of the last name, get absolutely demolished by some kid I'd never heard of in the state finals named Sam Hazewinkel.

People are doing WHAT, Vak???

 

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You folks are defining the "success" or "flop" of a young man's life solely in terms of his success on the mat. I ask whether it is possible that knowing, fewer than a mere handful of young people will ever compete beyond high school, much less at the DI level, that the goals for the young people is something other that success at the collegiate level? Did you know that less than 60% of the adult population ever completes a college degree? Geeezz, maybe, just maybe, the high school athletic experience is an end unto itself. Maybe it teaches its lessons without expectation of a "next" level. Maybe those lessons have to do with doing one's very best at whatever their next step may be in life. I think all of the posters debating whether a given wrestler met athletic expectations at the "next level" are myopic and misguided; presuming that a given kid's entire life's trajectory is predicated on their success on the mat, at whatever level. The point is, a lot of kids aren't cut out for college and going to college just for wrestling is often an ill-fated journey. Very successful high school wrestlers go to college just for wrestling and aren't prepared for the academic rigor; they shouldn't be there....despite their wrestling ability. 

Athletics are included in the K-12 public school system because it is intended to teach broader values, not simply athletic success. Discipline; tenacity; comradery; etc. Those values may have been successfully instilled whether the kid ever goes to college; the "lesson" may have been already learned - any endeavor in college may be suplurfluous. So get your heads out of your butt and realize that a given school's education program might be about more than being an NCAA champ.

I can't believe this thread has reached five pages.

Edited by npope

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What is so hard for people to under we’re talking about on may results based off expectations due to those results. 
 

Getting butthurt and thinking discussing results includes the “lessons of wrestling” aspect is being overly sensitive 

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2 hours ago, TampaRyley said:

JP - no attack meant on my side. Just seeing events through different lenses I suppose. 

Unc B- That match... I remember honestly tearing up during it, EG is a close close friend

Fair enough. I’m glad Geurro finished strong btw

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